Advice for horse anticipating in canter zigzags

[netg]

My older mare is the type of smart, quick-thinking, high energy tryer who makes people love chestnut mares when they are on your side.

She found changes easy, and is super confirmed in a straight line. We have done some single changes from half pass as well, with some anticipation moments which were easily fixed. Yesterday, we did canter zig zags and they went well.

Today, she had time to think about yesterday, and instead half passes turned into her flinging her whole body sideways against my outside leg to try to change bend when she thought I would probably be asking her to straighten then change. :lol: She is truly attempting to be helpful, and my understanding is this is a pretty common, normal phase to have happen. We also ended up with some ugly flip flops as she’d fling herself to one lead, realize I was still in position for the first lead, and switch back. :lol:

Today, I just rode through what amounted to bucking despite not being intended that way, asked her to go straight, counter canter, diagonal to true canter, and only change when she was not trying to anticipate it on a straight line so she had no reason to pretzel. I also did a lot of hands forward in half pass, which seemed to tell her there was no aiding of any sort going on, so just chill, and she anticipated much less then.

I think we’re on the right track and with time it’ll all calm down, but wanted to get experiences and advice in case there are any helpful tips besides give it time.

edit: example below of her basically trying to fling her hind end around that leads to us revisiting basics so she doesn’t think she needs to “help.”

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[GramV]

Yeah. They love being so smart.

You have the idea. As soon as she starts to anticipate or get wonky, change it up. I do a lot of half pass, leg yield (in canter) half pass, 8 m circle type of things so that the main focus stays on the carriage, collection, and bend. Going back to keeping counter canter around the corners and not always changing is helpful, too.

Try going down a “center” line in canter and just keep cantering and see if that works. That gets to be something they really anticipate and start throwing in wannabe halts, changes, pirouettes, extended canter, super collected canter, half passes, etc. Fun, fun, fun.

[netg]

Ooh, both leg yield and centerlines sound like good additions! Thanks!

She is so fun, and her enthusiasm for work is something I want to keep, so it looks like I may have to get even more creative.

[GramV]

Yes. I have two like that, one more so than the other. The more they learn, the more they want to show you! It is fun, but a lot of it becomes teaching them to wait until you ask.

I focus a lot on the conditioning of the horse to do the exercises, not the exercises themselves. For example, a good way to teach the collection of the canter for the pirouette is to canter on the spot, extended canter, canter on the spot. I saw Robert Dover doing a lot of similar stuff in the livestream.

[Cowgirl]

Fabulous exercise taught to me by Adrienne Lyle: Canter half pass to quarterline (or a few strides) then straighten and counter bend, traveling straight (not half passing) in counter bend, don’t let them change until almost to the end. It gets them to wait for your aid and accept the changing of bend so that the zig zag stays on your aids.

[CanteringCarrot]

I have a horse that anticipates. He can memorize a test after one ride I swear! If he begins anticipating I just do something else for a bit. Or I have to get a little firmer with my aids and make him wait for me, which will produce ugly results for a few strides while we have a discussion. Depending on the exercise, I may even make him halt mid whatever we are doing. He must stand, and wait for my next cue. This can help reset him.

I also don’t always practice the same exercise two days in a row. It’s too fresh in his mind. If he did well on day 1, I’ll come back to it a few days later and usually he is more relaxed then. I’m big on variety with him. I can’t be too repetitive.

[soloudinhere]

mmm, I disagree that bucking, etc has anything to do with anticipating. A horse that anticipates may get a little hot and behind the leg but bucking, etc shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what is being asked and is a disobedience. I would not say that is a “normal phase.”

I would suggest getting a competent trainer to watch what is happening from the ground, since video can lie to us a bit based on the perspective of the person filming. And I would not suggest schooling movements like the canter zig zags multiple days in a row, especially on a horse who is green to the level. If you know you have an anticipation issue, then that would make even less sense to do since you’d be training the horse to anticipate.

[merrygoround]

You gotta love these horses, but you must always stay one thought ahead of them, for everything. It means never halt at X, never canter R after cantering L. Etc,etc.

It has its pluses. Once learned, corners, well ridden, are automatic.

[netg]

@merrygoround

You gotta love these horses, but you must always stay one thought ahead of them, for everything. It means never halt at X, never canter R after cantering L. Etc,etc.

It has its pluses. Once learned, corners, well ridden, are automatic.

OMG! You nailed it and reminded me of something I hadn’t thought of in years. When my trainer started her his rides were standard walk warmup, trot both dirextions, canter both directions, then go out on the trail to cool off. If I rode we’d change things up, but my trainer stuck to the simple pattern with large circles, etc., but not much else. One day I was watching him ride and he wanted to show je something the first canter direction after finishing, and it made her very upset because of the change from their routine. After that we have always switched things up - great reminder.

[2tempe]

@CanteringCarrot

I have a horse that anticipates. He can memorize a test after one ride I swear! If he begins anticipating I just do something else for a bit. Or I have to get a little firmer with my aids and make him wait for me, which will produce ugly results for a few strides while we have a discussion. Depending on the exercise, I may even make him halt mid whatever we are doing. He must stand, and wait for my next cue. This can help reset him.

I also don’t always practice the same exercise two days in a row. It’s too fresh in his mind. If he did well on day 1, I’ll come back to it a few days later and usually he is more relaxed then. I’m big on variety with him. I can’t be too repetitive.

You must have my horse’s brother!!!

[CanteringCarrot]

@2tempe

You must have my horse’s brother!!!

He’s also Iberian :winkgrin: if you’re referring to your Lusitano. Too smart for their own good sometimes!

[2tempe]

@CanteringCarrot

He’s also Iberian :winkgrin: if you’re referring to your Lusitano. Too smart for their own good sometimes!

He’s the one!

[pluvinel]

@netg

…

Today, she had time to think about yesterday, and instead half passes turned into her flinging her whole body sideways against my outside leg to try to change bend when she thought I would probably be asking her to straighten then change. :lol: She is truly attempting to be helpful, and my understanding is this is a pretty common, normal phase to have happen. We also ended up with some ugly flip flops as she’d fling herself to one lead, realize I was still in position for the first lead, and switch back. :lol:

Today, I just rode through what amounted to bucking despite not being intended that way, asked her to go straight, counter canter, diagonal to true canter, and only change when she was not trying to anticipate it on a straight line so she had no reason to pretzel. I also did a lot of hands forward in half pass, which seemed to tell her there was no aiding of any sort going on, so just chill, and she anticipated much less then.
…

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If a horse gives a good movement initially then later offers some “resistance”…I would look to see what the rider is doing (and this is the pot calling the kettle…).

When I got into trouble with flying changes my instructor suggested trying a few things…

1. Sit more lightly
2. Ask for the change from a more forward canter
3. Don’t hold with my hands…ride the change from the seat…and finally…
4. Don’t try so hard

The reason I post these is the “bucking” with the hind end. This to me indicates that the horse is trying to organize its hind end.

So…my suspicion is that if the mare offered a nice change earlier, then the rider might be over riding the movement or asking for something more than the horse can do right now.

[Arbitrarily]

@soloudinhere

mmm, I disagree that bucking, etc has anything to do with anticipating. A horse that anticipates may get a little hot and behind the leg but bucking, etc shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what is being asked and is a disobedience. I would not say that is a “normal phase.”

I would suggest getting a competent trainer to watch what is happening from the ground, since video can lie to us a bit based on the perspective of the person filming. And I would not suggest schooling movements like the canter zig zags multiple days in a row, especially on a horse who is green to the level. If you know you have an anticipation issue, then that would make even less sense to do since you’d be training the horse to anticipate.

This.

[lorilu]

I also have a smarty pants. Breaking movements up into pieces, and mixing that up with occasionally doing the whole exercise, keeps him guessing…

I audited a Janet Foy clinic today and she had an interesting exercise… She did it in trot, but I think it could be adapted to canter… how about:
HP left to CL, straight ahead in SI RIGHT (No change of lead… so sort of counter flexed) only after confirmed in new bend and new outside rein ask for change, continue straight (no HP).

Or, what my trainer has me do to train this:
HP to CL, straight ahead, no lead change, circle around.
then HP to CL, straight ahead, single change, straight ahead
Then up CL, single change, HP to rail

Finally put it all together. Breaking it up prevents some anticipation.

OR, how about HP to CL, change, then leg yield OUT to keep him from diving into new HP?

[joiedevie99]

Changing directions and changing leads are different exercises. School them separately before you put them together. And build up slowly…
Half pass from the rail to the QL, leg yield back to the wall, half pass to the QL, leg yield back to the wall.
Half pass to the QL, Shoulder-In straight, half pass to the CL, shoulder-in straight.
Half pass to the QL, shoulder-in two strides, straighten, change, shoulder-in two strides, half pass back to the rail.
Half pass to the QL, leg yield to the CL, half pass to the 3/4 QL, half pass to the far rail.
Half pass to the QL, straighten, change, leg yield to the CL.
Half pass to the QL, straighten, medium, collect, change.

[Dressagelvr]

@Arbitrarily

This.

X2

Your mare isn’t helping. Bucking isn’t helping. She’s resisting or lacking the strength to do what’s being asked of her. Or, it could be rider related.

Only a pro on the ground can solve.

[Dressagelvr]

@soloudinhere

mmm, I disagree that bucking, etc has anything to do with anticipating. A horse that anticipates may get a little hot and behind the leg but bucking, etc shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what is being asked and is a disobedience. I would not say that is a “normal phase.”

I would suggest getting a competent trainer to watch what is happening from the ground, since video can lie to us a bit based on the perspective of the person filming. And I would not suggest schooling movements like the canter zig zags multiple days in a row, especially on a horse who is green to the level. If you know you have an anticipation issue, then that would make even less sense to do since you’d be training the horse to anticipate.

X2

Your mare isn’t helping. Bucking isn’t helping. She’s resisting or lacking the strength to do what’s being asked of her. Or, it could be rider related.

Definitely need agood trainer on the ground.