Advice on Potential Purchase

[WB_Mom]

Looking for COTH wisdom here!
Potentially looking at purchasing a 4 yo 15.3 registered Westphalian mare, dressage bred. The present owner bought her out of a field as a 2 YO, pretty feral. She is an absolutely beautiful mover, but VERY green at this point. The present owner was extremely truthful about her, she can have an attitude (her nickname was Jaws) and has a club foot (front right). We have her on trial and when she came her club foot looked really bad. Yesterday we had our new chiropractor out and we had him do his magic on her. She is a mess. He spent far longer on her than any other horse. I don’t think she had ever been done before, so she actually was quite good. It was obvious she was doing a lot of compensating and it seemed like she was sore everywhere. When it was painful she let you know by making ‘the face’. She never tried to bite, just warn. He totally respected what she was saying and would stop and not push it. At one point, she wouldn’t let him pick up her left hind, but after additional work, he was able to pick it up and work from the stifle down and she was O.K. with it.

We all agreed that our vet (who also is trained to do corrective shoeing) needs to come and xray her and let us know exactly what is going on with her foot. The consensus was the foot was shod completely wrong. It is possible the foot is not as bad as it actually looks, hopefully. This should help us decide a better course of action.

Your thoughts on how to proceed with her. We have had her less than a week, so have not done much yet. The trainer has only ridden her once, so we are still figuring a lot out. The trainer is of the opinion that she has been trying to say she is in pain, but nobody has paid attention to what she is trying to say until now. She is very sweet until it hurts. Is there anything we need to do that we may not have thought of? We are not very familiar with club-footed horses, so any info on that would be appreciated as well. Even though we would prefer a horse that can jump, we are prepared to just do dressage only with her if that is what she needs.
The thing is, we just sat there and wondered - considering how much of a mess she is right now, and she moves SO WELL, how much better will she move if she is shod correctly and her whole body doesn’t hurt? I think she is actually a very gentle, sweet soul.

[IPEsq]

I would not buy this problem. I have a super sensitive horse, and this attitude will always be there and present training challenges. I’ve also had a club footed horse before who was by and large the soundest horse I ever had. It seems like this mare has a lot going on. It would be a hard pass.

If you haven’t seen any of my posts about my horse…well just this week he was getting very slowly and carefully put back to work after a week or so off from what we think was him getting cast in his stall (2 swollen legs, and now body soreness). Because of his history of body soreness while he was growing (and growing and growing through his 8yo year—now he is mostly in filling out mode at 9), this event triggered his defensiveness and so he has tried to casually scrape me off on a tree, thrown a couple of tantrums with flinging front legs. All because I asked him to trot under saddle. You could tell he was a sensitive, opinionated horse at 4. But add body issues on top of that and a couple more significant injuries since then, and if I’d known he’d have those issues too, I would have run away. It’s been extremely difficult. And unfortunately work is what helps his body so the vets say he needs to do it.

Perhaps this filly is different but she sounds like my friend’s mare who is really cut from the same cloth as my gelding. And it’s been no easier for her—actually possibly worse because that one is less sound.

[ahgibbs]

I agree with IPEsq on the club foot. My horse has a mild club foot on his front L and he is shod properly , foot is balanced and you can’t even tell most of the time. It never bothers him and he has had no soundness issues. Proper balance of the hoof can make a huge difference.

Give her more time. You did mention you wanted a horse that could jump, but she only does dressage. I guess I would really rely on those around you to make sure she is a good fit for where you are in life. I bought my current horse, a 17hh , 1500 lb OTTB , off the track. He has been a great horse for me but I bought him when he was 5 and I was 32. He’s now 13, I’m 40. It was a bit of a rodeo the first year. In another 10-15 years, if I’m looking to buy again, I don’t know that my body could handle quite that much and that type of horse may not be the best fit for me. (Just for example)

[Bluey]

@WB Mom

Looking for COTH wisdom here!
Potentially looking at purchasing a 4 yo 15.3 registered Westphalian mare, dressage bred. The present owner bought her out of a field as a 2 YO, pretty feral. She is an absolutely beautiful mover, but VERY green at this point. The present owner was extremely truthful about her, she can have an attitude (her nickname was Jaws) and has a club foot (front right). We have her on trial and when she came her club foot looked really bad. Yesterday we had our new chiropractor out and we had him do his magic on her. She is a mess. He spent far longer on her than any other horse. I don’t think she had ever been done before, so she actually was quite good. It was obvious she was doing a lot of compensating and it seemed like she was sore everywhere. When it was painful she let you know by making ‘the face’. She never tried to bite, just warn. He totally respected what she was saying and would stop and not push it. At one point, she wouldn’t let him pick up her left hind, but after additional work, he was able to pick it up and work from the stifle down and she was O.K. with it.

We all agreed that our vet (who also is trained to do corrective shoeing) needs to come and xray her and let us know exactly what is going on with her foot. The consensus was the foot was shod completely wrong. It is possible the foot is not as bad as it actually looks, hopefully. This should help us decide a better course of action.

Your thoughts on how to proceed with her. We have had her less than a week, so have not done much yet. The trainer has only ridden her once, so we are still figuring a lot out. The trainer is of the opinion that she has been trying to say she is in pain, but nobody has paid attention to what she is trying to say until now. She is very sweet until it hurts. Is there anything we need to do that we may not have thought of? We are not very familiar with club-footed horses, so any info on that would be appreciated as well. Even though we would prefer a horse that can jump, we are prepared to just do dressage only with her if that is what she needs.
The thing is, we just sat there and wondered - considering how much of a mess she is right now, and she moves SO WELL, how much better will she move if she is shod correctly and her whole body doesn’t hurt? I think she is actually a very gentle, sweet soul.

I would say it depends on why you are into horses now.

Do you want a promising youngster that had an excellent upbringing and is getting fit easily for your purpose, for what you want to do with that horse, generally aimed at some competition?

Or are you more into taking it easy, finding a nice horse that needs much work and has some problems you hope to get horse over, more into rehabbing horses and see where you go with them?

Once you decide where you want to go with what you do with horses, what makes sense for your situation, there you will have your answer about if this horse fits, knowing it may be a project horse with uncertain future, or if you want other from your horses than go down that route.

There is no right answer there, each one of us and each horse we consider taking care of will again bring that question up to the front.
Is the horse a good fit for me and my goals now, or maybe not quite, better keep looking?

A thorough vet exam will sure help give you a window into future possibilities.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@ahgibbs

I agree with IPEsq on the club foot. My horse has a mild club foot on his front L and he is shod properly , foot is balanced and you can’t even tell most of the time. It never bothers him and he has had no soundness issues. Proper balance of the hoof can make a huge difference.

I also owned, at one point, a horse with a club foot. During PPE my vet told me to always make sure the foot is shod to the foot, not to “fix” the problem (as way, way to late in the horse’s life to “fix” it). My farrier shod the foot to keep it balanced for that foot; he never tried to “fix” it. Never had the horse take a lame step in the years I owned him.

Sold him because he ended up just being too hard for me to ride. I checked with with the person who bought him, she was working 3rd and loved him.

[Scribbler]

Hmmm. I hang around at the low end of nice horses. I’ve never dealt with a club foot and have seen them badly managed so that’s outside my area of experience.

The rest of it sounds standard — for a bargain horse. I wouldn’t pay more than $2000 for what you describe and that’s the WB premium ;), any other breed it would be $1000 and an OTTB $500. What you pay $20,000 for in a WB prospect is not just genetics but a guarantee the horse came off a reputable breeding farm and has age appropriate training.

Here you will need to do rescue horse level rehab on body and soul. I think that an experienced horseperson or rather mare person could get this horse happy and cooperative within a year. I would be willing to try if it was the breed I covet (Iberian). But there is no guarantee about her performance level either physically or mentally.

If you have the experience and patience to rehab a nice horse and are open to the idea she might be limited to low levels, and might not do your discipline of choice then rehabbing her with an open ended view of the future would be a fun journey.

If you want a horse with a higher than 50% chance of actually getting in the competition ring jumpers or dressage, then buy higher up the price range and get something that has no existing deficits in training or body or mind.

[Zu_Zu]

I’d keep looking … just saying

with age and experience my ‘gambling’ days are over

Good Luck Jingles for you ~ AO

[Palm_Beach]

What you see is what you get. I’m not sure if I’d take a horse like that if it was free. I absolutely would not spend money on it.

[Equisis]

I would want to know why she is in so much pain, for starters. That would be a red flag for me. The club foot, not as much. Are you wanting to take on a potentially lengthy rehab case, one that might also have mental/emotional baggage? IMO you are buying a horse with a lot of uncertainty.

I would consider the fact that her personality may or may not improve, even if you can eradicate the body soreness. One always hopes that it will, but since there is no guarantee, 7are you okay with the possibility that the reactivity and attitude may be a permanent fixture? If the horse you see today is pretty much her “normal”- is that a horse you will be happy to own and ride?

Great movement is great movement, but for me, rideability is more important, especially in an unproven prospect. She sounds like she has potential, but there is also significant risk. I would urge you to consider that her personality and pain issues may or may not be able to be improved, and to decide if you will be happy with her regardless of outcome.

[Scribbler]

I wouldn’t take this on as my main or only horse btw, only as a side project. And I would not buy this horse for a junior rider. Just saying that last because I never know when someone has mom in their username if that means they are the riders mom or just a horse owner themselves.

[S1969]

Why are you interesting in buying her?

Agree with the post above - why exactly is she in pain?

Why did you have the chiro come before the vet? And are you saying the vet hasn’t come yet but you’ve decided the horse is shod incorrectly? Or the vet came already and decided that?

I certainly wouldn’t do anything before getting xrays and having a better understanding of that foot.

[candyappy]

The advice you get on here should really be taken lightly. What any of us as an individual would do or advise in your case is based on what you have told us and not anything we have seen with our own eyes.

Sometimes things look worse than they are and that is when you go to the vet, farrier and others who have their eyes and hands on the horse and get the wisdom you are hoping for.

I have been pretty lucky with my horses over the many years I’ve had them, so I would probably take a chance with her if you have a great vet and great farrier who know their jobs and do them well. She is sound now and if they think that the body soreness can be dealt with and she has a good mind, then I would proceed.

That is just me.

[Scribbler]

@candyappy

The advice you get on here should really be taken lightly. What any of us as an individual would do or advise in your case is based on what you have told us and not anything we have seen with our own eyes.

Sometimes things look worse than they are and that is when you go to the vet, farrier and others who have their eyes and hands on the horse and get the wisdom you are hoping for.

I have been pretty lucky with my horses over the many years I’ve had them, so I would probably take a chance with her if you have a great vet and great farrier who know their jobs and do them well. She is sound now and if they think that the body soreness can be dealt with and she has a good mind, then I would proceed.

That is just me.

I also would consider taking on a quality horse with these issues if the price was right. But i would go into it understanding that the timeline for getting a functional horse would be different. A WB with nice movement is usually already started under saddle by age 4 and ready to start schooling your discipline of choice. Do you know anything about her history? Was she tossed out on a field because her breeder didn’t like the club foot? She’s also small for a WB.

Had the current owner done any ground work or physical remediation with her or just left her in another field, sounds like?

[BeeHoney]

This mare sounds like a pass.

I’m not super concerned about the club foot unless you are planning to breed. A horse with a club foot can be very sound and usable. Nonetheless, it will make the horse very hard to re-sell–a minor point since it doesn’t sound like you are looking for a resale project, and the other factors you discuss are much more likely to make it difficult to ever rehome her, let alone sell her.

I’m much more concerned about the other stuff you describe. Her attitude is a huge red flag. A mare that is that unpleasant at age 4 is not likely to get sweeter or kinder with time. It is a red flag that she may be difficult to work with and train. It also is a red flag that she is in pain.

Which brings us to point B–here you have a green 4 year old mare that is not even doing a real job yet that is “a mess.” I’m here to tell you that if a 4 year old mare is that sore before she’s even started her career, it’s super unlikely that she is going to have a career either doing dressage or jumping. She doesn’t sound pleasant or reliable enough in temperament to be a good trail or pleasure horse prospect.

Ultimately, I think this mare would be a very risky purchase. I think her prospects for being a pleasant riding horse are slim. And more importantly, I think there is a reasonable risk you would end up spending a lot of money in vet/chiro/farrier bills only to end up with a prematurely retired, unpleasant pasture pet. Getting stuck with an early retiree will leave you choosing between spending tens of thousands of dollars on lifetime retirement for her vs. the painful option of putting her down.

If I were you, I wouldn’t spend another dime on this horse on X-rays or whatever. I’d sit down with your calculator and add up your current funds + a years worth of generous vet/chiro/farrier bills (that this mare would assuredly blow through) + a years worth of board and training + one visit to the ER (looking in my crystal ball here). Now, take that new number and go buy yourself something with a heck of a lot less baggage.

[Libby2563]

It’s really hard to offer advice without some idea of your goals as a rider and horse owner, but I’m inclined to agree with BeeHoney. I’m also wondering what about the horse interested you in the first place. If it’s that she’s an above-average mover for the price, that wouldn’t be enough to make me take the risk on something with questionable soundness and temperament.

[Scribbler]

IME all mares in pain are really pissy and self protective, more than geldings.

If this was being framed as a horse rescue scenario with no performance objectives I think we’d all be saying go for it after a good vetting.

I think it’s the fact there seem to be perfotmance goals attached that make this sound like it could be a recipe for frustration and heartache.

[WB_Mom]

Thanks everyone for your input! The timing was that the chiro was already here, which is why it happened first. I find it interesting that no one is really concerned about the club foot and more about why she is in pain and her temperament. I guess I always thought a club foot was much worse than it really is. Who knew?
She would be a dressage project for my trainer, who has experience in starting horses and taking TB’s off the track. We did some bodywork on her today and at first, she objected to certain places, but fairly quickly settled down and relaxed. My trainer then rode her (2nd ride) and she was much better and seemed much happier. My trainer did say she thinks she is smart and seems very willing to try, but is so green she doesn’t know what she is being asked to do.
Is it possible that her body pain or soreness could be from the incorrect shoeing on the club foot and her trying to compensate for it? She is extremely green, an unfit noodle with no balance at all at the walk, trot or canter. She reminds me of a TB right off the track in some respects.
I’m thinking if we give her a week with a consistent schedule and riding and then plan on a final evaluation, is that fair enough?

[2tempe]

A bunch of years ago I tried a lovely trakehner mare, 6 at the time, who had a club foot. She was sound and going nicely first level type work. Did PPE including xrays, and the vet told me that she had rotation of the coffin bone in that foot. I passed, shared films with the owner, and the horse was pulled off market. Owner had good xrays at 4 so something happened along the way. My point here is IF you go forward, stick to the idea of xrays.

[ElementFarm]

Add me to the group that says club feet are really NBD. My AO horse had a club, and aside from the year she spent on lease with a farrier who did not know how to balance her feet, it never caused her any problems. She’s coming 19 and still sound, though semi-retired for non-foot related things.

The body soreness and greenness may be a problem or may not.
A lot depends on budget, experience, and level of risk you’re willing to take.

I have champagne taste but a beer budget, so most of my horse purchases involve a fair amount of risk taking – I can’t afford the quality, look, movement, or talent that I want, unless there’s a ‘hole’ in there somewhere. Some are older, have some NQR in their history, or are a little too green or quirky to be snatched up by the other bargain shoppers.

Most, though not all, have worked out well. I have my own place and generally have several riding horses at a time, so I can give a new one some time to settle, and can be patient in figuring out how to work with them. If this was my only horse, and/or I had a timeline for when I wanted to be able to show or ride XX height or test, then I couldn’t afford that level of risk.

It’s also not my first rodeo–by now I’m pretty good at figuring out what ‘holes’ I’m comfortable with. But, I learned those lessons the hard way, with some mistakes and tough issues.

BL, with a talented but quirky young one, I’d be willing to take a chance, so long as any potential pain/physical issues were things I felt I could fix or work around. I admit, I’m a mare person, and that is part of it. I wouldn’t accept the same level of behavior from a gelding. That’s not fair, but it’s how I am. But a quirky mare is a whole different challenge than a quirky gelding.

[S1969]

@WB Mom

Is it possible that her body pain or soreness could be from the incorrect shoeing on the club foot and her trying to compensate for it? She is extremely green, an unfit noodle with no balance at all at the walk, trot or canter.

What makes you sure she is body sore? Does she present as lame? You describe her as a beautiful mover so I assume not lame.

From your post it sounds like the chiro is identifying her as “sore in the entire body” because she found chiro painful. My initial reaction is to wonder if the chiro is simply too aggressive for her rather than assume that she is sore. Is there any other indication that she was sore prior to the chiro working on her?

I would also wonder if the under saddle training was done well and/or done in well-fitting tack.