Advice on PPE for jumper prospect

[spurrest82]

I have vetted a 4yr old jumper prospect. Has been in work for approximately a year. Has jumped around a couple horse shows so far no problem (low-level, of course)

Flexions were great, but hock x-rays show some early indication of arthritic changes. It has been a while since I vetted a horse this young, and I am concerned that is pretty young already for this type of change. I am not of the illusion that a horse needs to vet perfectly (so few actually do). I certainly don’t mind doing maintenance on an older horse too, my main question is - is this alarmingly young for an issue like this?

In terms of what I plan to do with the horse, mainly have fun as a little project. Do some light showing next year, nothing crazy. Dream would be to eventually (i.e. in a few years, like when the horse is 7 or 8) be able to jump around 1.20m - but not going to be heartbroken if that doesn’t happen. I am sure I would eventually need to sell the horse at some point in my life…(I am no spring chicken)

Anyway, curious what others think?

[staceymc]

Walk (actually run) away. This would not bother me at 7 - 10 years old for a horse already doing the job I wanted him to do. For a 4 year old? Nopenopenope. Vetting doesn’t need to be perfect, but arthritic changes at that age and not having done much? Won’t end well.

[EmilyM]

arthritis in a 4 year old doesn’t sound great. the vet should be able to give you a sense if it is within normal limits for his age or whether it is more consistent with an older horse.

[RAyers]

Here is my take. The vet nor does anybody know if those are real cartilage changes. X-Rays can not detect cartilage. Additionally, X-Rays are only a SINGLE point in time and not indicative of anything actually changing! Diagnosing OA or other in a young horse (or human) using X-Rays is a BS procedure. The vet will always go towards hyperconservative diagnosis, e.g. there are “possible changes,” to cover their ass. The same goes with flexions. Clinical research has shown flexions almost always have no real diagnostic function outside of a true lameness for an isolated tissue but have NO indication towards OA.

The expectation of horses needing “perfect” vetting has destroyed to concept of what a normal horse is. There are thousands of horses at all ages who have shit rads and move sound while thousands more have great rads and are lame.

If you really want to look for OA you need to pull synovial fluid and check the cytokine profile. Otherwise you are looking at a blue car trying to figure out if the engine is 4 degrees off in its timing.

[BellaFortuna]

Did the horse have baseline x-rays? If so, I would have a vet review those. Did your personal vet conduct the PPE or was the PPE conducted by another vet? If you haven’t already, have your vet review the exam and x-rays, or get a second opinion . Also, I would have requested a copy of the horse’s full vet record to make sure there wasn’t a history of lameness, etc (probably not, but doesn’t hurt to check). If the owner/seller refuses, that’s a reason to walk in itself.

A vet explained it to me as risk analysis. What are your long term plans for this horse? Do you expect/need to sell at some point at the future and looking to sell at purchase price or higher, or can you view this purchase price as a “lease price” (i.e. money that is spent that you do not need a return on)? If the horse ultimately cannot physically do the job, do you have the flexibility/means to get a horse that can do that job (or a new prospect) especially if that horse sells for a lower level job price? If the horse has done light work only and is only 4, I would be concerned whether this horse could physically handle a 1.20 job, or even a 1.10 job. Likely the horse will need regular maintenance i.e. injections etc. starting at a younger age.

[StormyDay]

Why did you X-ray hocks? Just because it’s a popular thing to do in PPE, or because the vet saw something during the initial exam?

If it’s the first one, I might send the X-rays out to another vet to get a second opinion on it. Reading rads is an art, and one persons ‘mild changes’ is another’s ‘there’s absolutely nothing wrong here’.

If it’s the second, I’d run away. Any unsoundness in a horse that’s only 4 is scary.

[RAyers]

But that’s the thing, the OP says the horse is sound. She is considering a sale based on rads?! That is ludicrous.

Just because a rad looks odd does not mean a horse is unsound. A basic tenant of human medicine is to NOT treat a patient solely on the imaging, especially a single time point of imaging. To do so many times leads to false diagnoses and worse outcomes.

[IPEsq]

To me it would depend on where the changes are and what type. Lower joint bone spur type changes I’ve gone with on a low mileage 4yo that flexes clean–Horse had plenty of subsequent problems but hocks were very minor issue–we did do injections later on but the images didn’t show any progression…likely the joint inflammation may have come from compensating for the other problems. Upper joints, I’d pass. Much harder to maintain.

The other consideration is the price of the horse versus what impact this finding may have on future resale, and if you are considering selling in the future. But that’s more of a price negotiation issue, not a hard pass on the horse as being unsound kind of issue.

[NancyM]

PPEs do not predict the future. Different vets often have different opinions on the issues they think they see in an xray or scan. There are no guarantees OF ANYTHING when you buy a horse, no matter how much you pay for a purchase price, or what a vet says or doesn’t say. Act accordingly.

When you are buying a horse, you are stepping off a cliff into the unknown. Perhaps you will spread your wings and fly, and perhaps you will fall to disaster. Or perhaps a mixture of the two. The possibilities are endless. Horrific xrays can stay functionally sound indefinately, and horses who have lameness issues may never be correctly diagnosed or identified.

Good luck with your decisions. Myself… I don’t pay much, and listen to my gut feelings. If I feel I need to buy the horse, I usually do, and accept the consequences. If the horse doesn’t elicit that response in me or is expensive, I walk away. Because I am not rich, and understand that when buying a horse, there are no guarantees, of anything.

[GraceLikeRain]

I bought a horse that flexed beautiful but had hock changes. Long term we had significant issues in multiple joints. Where else did you X-ray? If I was really serious I’d want to know what knees, stifles, and fetlocks look like.

[wildlifer]

@RAyers

The expectation of horses needing “perfect” vetting has destroyed to concept of what a normal horse is. There are thousands of horses at all ages who have shit rads and move sound while thousands more have great rads and are lame.

If you really want to look for OA you need to pull synovial fluid and check the cytokine profile. Otherwise you are looking at a blue car trying to figure out if the engine is 4 degrees off in its timing.

Just wanted to say thanks for this great reminder as I get ready to vet another horse. I am not one who needs to image their whole body & tend to be more minimalist, using “context clues”, but sometimes my brain starts running off the rails due to some bad luck I’ve had in the past, so it was really helpful to see this timely kick of reality. EXCELLENT analogy, BTW.

*edited to fix what phone omitted.

[doubledutch]

Here is my experience. Years ago I vetted a 3 year old, super clean great x-rays, no issues at all. By 7 the horse had developed OA, needed maintenance forever, and was hard to keep sound. Keep in mind up until then only easy flat work and very small jumping was done. A few years prior I had vetted a 5 yo who anyone would have likely run away from. The horse had been sound though, and the price was right. That horse stayed sound his entire life and had a pretty good career. Like a PP said, PPE can’t predict the future, they only give you insight about what you might be dealing with. I have also learned that what one vet sees on a finding another vet will see something different. So sometimes it doesn’t hurt to get a second opinion. There are places you can send x-rays to online for review that often provide more insight. Good luck!

[iJump]

Horses are a risk no matter what.

I had one with near perfect rads… ended up a nightmare with soft tissue things.

I have one right now that has horrible rads, including arthritic changes in the hocks (big horse) that is the soundest in the barn.