Aggressive behavior and herd bound...

[JB]

What is a “studdish face”? IMHO there is no “stallion face”. There can be a stallion-like crest/neck, but not really faces. There are all manners of faces on stallions, from perpetual pony face, to macho face, to feminine face.

I would start with checking his testosterone level, just to get that out of the way, and address it if it’s high enough.

Geldings live with mares all the time. My WB has been in 3 different mixed herds all his life, all very peaceful save for the occasional position challenge (and not always the boys).

One of the worst fights I saw was 2 mares, in an all-mare herd, where one backed up to the other and was double-barreling her for all she was worth - in turnout, not cornered, but they were “anxious” waiting to come in. So it’s not always the boys causing problems either.

Do you have any friends/trainers around who have a super alpha, but super fair horse who might teach this guy a lesson and knock him down a notch or 3? It’s risky for sure, but if it’s possible, that’s a kinder outcome for him than having to be relegated to solitary. Or is there a trainer who can come work with him on your property (since he doesn’t seem to have issues away from home) to really get inside his head and teach him some better behavior? The fact that he’s only “improved” some things by being whacked with a scraper tells me he may have some superiority complex that is still there, he’s just learning which behaviors are not acceptable around you. Maybe your CTJ moments have not really made the impression him that needs to be made. I’m not suggesting that he needs to be beaten within an inch of his life, just maybe some other tactic, or a different approach to the CTJ, if that makes sense.

As long as he’s not really going to kill himself, solitary for now might work. It’s certainly something that has worked for other horses in the past. It doesn’t teach them manners in a herd, but it does help deal with herd-bound issues.

[Color_of_Light]

@LookmaNohands

If you are up for working him through this with a training program, I highly recommend Carolyn Resnick’s Water Hole Rituals. www.carolynresnickblog.com It is a very effective and unusual program of Liberty training. It could help with this kind of behavior. I would also recommend TTouch if you can find a practitioner near you.

You might also talk to your vet about this.

LOL! I think the OP’s horse would run her over and kick the snot out of her if she practiced what the Fairy Meditation Voice says, as found on your link. The “Chair Challenge” is fruitbat sounding “guided meditation” (for a human). This is not Liberty Training for a horse. Although, a horse is part of the props in this “guided meditation”. Other props: chair and a reed (to keep the horse away from you as you’re sitting in the chair).

From the bullet points in the intro:
~ You will receive a guided meditation by email each day for 21 days.

~ Only use a horse that you feel safe to sit down in a chair with and who will be calm in your presence.

Written description in the intro:
“The Chair Challenge was developed so that you can take some time out of your busy life to slow down and get plugged back into your well-being. The challenge is that you live each day for the next 21 days focused on feeling a sense of connection and well being with things as they are. From this well-being you will get back to your true nature; back to when you felt free and the world was your playground. This awareness will open a door to having your instincts working for you. This 21 day guided meditation is an introduction into the practice of awareness that not only benefits the relationship of your horse, but is an ongoing contribution to yourself.”

In listening to the Fairy Meditation voice of the recordings:

Day 17: "Now shift your consciousness to the energy that surrounds you and all that you see. You are aware of form and formlessness. Walk awhile in this awareness. This awareness will give you a sense of timelessness and a feeling that life is eternal. When you come back from your walk, join your horse in his world and his space once again. Continue to interact with your horse in this way and you will discover the magic in how to connect and how to give room to grow the bond. "

Day 21: “Quieting down in a state of joy through finding neutral brings consciousness without thought and awakens you to your Buddha nature, or to the Source of all creation, simply put, to whatever supports life. In these meditations, experiencing neutral, your life force is fully awake and not being pinched off from the mind disallowing things to be as they are. Your body is rejuvenating, your heart is healing and leading your actions, and your horse is feeling your presence more deeply. In this state you are helping your horse to rejuvenate his well-being.”

[mountainhorse]

@JB

What is a “studdish face”? IMHO there is no “stallion face”. There can be a stallion-like crest/neck, but not really faces. There are all manners of faces on stallions, from perpetual pony face, to macho face, to feminine face.

I would start with checking his testosterone level, just to get that out of the way, and address it if it’s high enough.

Geldings live with mares all the time. My WB has been in 3 different mixed herds all his life, all very peaceful save for the occasional position challenge (and not always the boys).

One of the worst fights I saw was 2 mares, in an all-mare herd, where one backed up to the other and was double-barreling her for all she was worth - in turnout, not cornered, but they were “anxious” waiting to come in. So it’s not always the boys causing problems either.

Do you have any friends/trainers around who have a super alpha, but super fair horse who might teach this guy a lesson and knock him down a notch or 3? It’s risky for sure, but if it’s possible, that’s a kinder outcome for him than having to be relegated to solitary. Or is there a trainer who can come work with him on your property (since he doesn’t seem to have issues away from home) to really get inside his head and teach him some better behavior? The fact that he’s only “improved” some things by being whacked with a scraper tells me he may have some superiority complex that is still there, he’s just learning which behaviors are not acceptable around you. Maybe your CTJ moments have not really made the impression him that needs to be made. I’m not suggesting that he needs to be beaten within an inch of his life, just maybe some other tactic, or a different approach to the CTJ, if that makes sense.

As long as he’s not really going to kill himself, solitary for now might work. It’s certainly something that has worked for other horses in the past. It doesn’t teach them manners in a herd, but it does help deal with herd-bound issues.

Great advice. Testosterone levels definitely need to be checked and ruled out, esp. with you ‘not so sure’ about history.

[Garnet_Z]

If the attack on your mare happened while she was in heat, it could be that your gelding just cannot be turned out with mares. Even properly castrated geldings can sometimes display stallion-like behaviors towards mares in heat if they are turned out with them. Other geldings do not. He could have tried mounting her, she may not have allowed it, and he may have then attacked her because of that. Some geldings will also fiercely ‘guard’ mares in heat and may become very agitated if separated from them. You might have an easier time with this guy if he was not turned out with mares.

My own horse was somewhat “studly” with a mare in heat during late summer last year. He wasn’t aggressive or anything, but he would whinny and paw if he couldn’t see her during that time. I didn’t even bother trying to ride him off the property during that time. He kept himself very close to her at all times in the pasture and he also whinnied non-stop whenever she was ridden. As soon as she wasn’t in heat, he quit that behavior and was fine being separated from her. If he gets extremely stupid this year, there is another pasture he can go in.

[SouthernYankee]

After 3 days of solitary confinement I turned him back out with everyone last night. He had given up on pacing and speaking and had settled down. His facial expression and body language was relaxed and submissive. It might be too soon but I don’t really have a good set up for individual turnout and the cows needed to go into the pasture he was in. The pasture that he could have rotated to had a dead tree cut down yesterday and it’s laying there for us to pick up, for safety reasons I didn’t want him in that pasture. When I turned him back with everyone he politely led with a lead rope around his neck, avoided eye contact with everyone, and went to munching on hay when I turned him loose. Chores were uneventful, and at the midnight check they were all bunched up sleeping. This morning he came up to me for scratches and loving (he’s not an affectionate horse). No funny business that I have seen however they are all locked out of the run in.

He’s a smart cookie and I’m pretty sure he understood the cause/reaction to his actions. Be an asshole and live by yourself. I am prepared to repeat the separation as much as needed.

@LookmaNohands and @Color of Light the Meditation may be very beneficial for some horses and their handlers however this horse is not at that point yet. He needs tactful handling and sitting in a chair at knee level is not something I would consider a smart move at this point.

@JB by ‘studdish look’ I meant that he doesn’t have the large jaw that I normally see in horses that have been cut late. My other gelding was gelded at 2+ and he’s got a well defined jaw line. This horse looks old school TB with the large but refined head (he isn’t TB). Unfortunately I don’t have any friends with a super alpha mare, my alpha mare is pretty strict when she isn’t in heat and has no issue handing him his ass. He knows to stay away from her.

The CTJ meetings do seem to have some affect on him, and I have taken the beatings past the 3 second rule a few times. And by beatings I mean beatings, not something that can be used on many horses but is needed when the respect is not there. He gets it, and he respects me. I am not over horsed, but I’m not really sure how to get him to the point where he’s safe for others to handle. It’s everyone else that he comes in contact with that I have to be careful about, the fiance is not a horse guy but will help when I have to travel for work. This horse uses his size to intimidate him and the fiance hasn’t been smart enough to think ahead and carry the sweat scraper of something else with him.

Vet comes out on Monday, will get him to pull testosterone then.

[candyappy]

@SouthernYankee

[B]
He’s an ass to deal with on the ground. He can tend to be a little cow kicky and makes ugly faces. He doesn’t know personal space.

These things alone would be an issue for me. I know you said he is getting better but it sounds like he has a long way to go if he is still doing this almost a year after you bought him.

The fact that he beat up your mare is also an issue for me. I have 2 mares who live peaceably together 99% of the time. When my mare has an abnormally strong heat, I hear squealing and will catch her going after my other mare if they are penned. On those rare occasions I do not lock them in the dry lot that night and the problem is eliminated.

Down time, good food and weight gain all lead to a horse feeling better than they should. It could be your boy is testing his place in the herd, but the way he is doing that is not something I would tolerate, I don’t care if food is present or not.

He will be unhappy but he may just be a horse who needs to have his own space.

I really don’t think he had any idea why he was in his own pasture. Animals don’t reason and think as we do. He probably was an angel because he wore himself out running, screaming and throwing a fit for several consecutive days.

[JB]

A large jowl is not necessarily indicative of a stallion, and a smaller one not necessarily indicative of an early-gelded gelding. My TB was VERY broad in his jowl - he really needed a WB-length throat latch piece, as it was always on the last hole.

It’s encouraging that his behavior has changed since his solitary. I would be extra extra watchful and any time you are around him, whether you are attached or not (leading/handling, or just in his stall, or even in his pasture in proximity to him), I’d be prepared to correct any unwanted behavior instantly. Just because you’re 10’ away without any halter on does not give him license to pin ears and herd any away from you, for example.

[runNjump86]

You said everyone lives out 24/7, which is great, but is everyone fed together? Do they go into their own stalls but doors are left open to eat? If it’s either of those setups then he needs to be put in solitary ASAP for everyone’s safety…horses and fiance. I don’t blame you for not having your fiance change out his blankets. Your fiance shouldn’t have to handle this horse, at all, period.

The poster who commented that this horse is ALWAYS being trained is spot on. Every single interaction had with this horse teaches him something. Since your fiance is intimidated and is worse when you get back, he is learning and being rewarded every time he acts like a dick to your fiance that he can get away with it. He knows his place with you, but if the behavior keeps escalating, whether mare heat is driving force or not, he may damn well challenge you again. Obviously you’re capable of handling him but he sounds like a conniving SOB and I wouldn’t put it past him to take advantage of a mild slip of attention.

[btswass]

Your horse somewhat reminds me of my horse at 5. We had just moved him to our own property and he suddenly decided HE was in charge. If I tried to put him on the cross ties while the donkey was in the side paddock and he couldn’t see him he would try to start rearing. He pushed me around would bolt out of his stall and when I took him off the cross ties. He was just in general very difficult to manage. I had to get very strict with him and didn’t tolerate any of it. The more he was away from the donkey the more he realized he wasn’t going to die. And by 6 he was fine.

I think taking the route of solitary confinement and letting him figure it out is good. I think as he ages he will calm down. It sounds like he probably didn’t get handled much at all until 4. So it will probably take some more years before he settles down. Do ground work with him. Teach him, forcefully if you have to, to respect you. Then teach him to respect your fiance. Be consistent with him and praise him when he is good. Its amazing what my horse will do for a cookie! He knows he gets a cookie after I ride if he behaved himself. Since I started doing that we haven’t had a single tantrum. And this is a horse that used to have 2-3 every ride. I think your boy needs as much handling and special attention as you can give him

[csaper58]

@SouthernYankee

The CTJ meetings do seem to have some affect on him, and I have taken the beatings past the 3 second rule a few times. And by beatings I mean beatings, not something that can be used on many horses but is needed when the respect is not there. He gets it, and he respects me. I am not over horsed, but I’m not really sure how to get him to the point where he’s safe for others to handle. It’s everyone else that he comes in contact with that I have to be careful about, the fiance is not a horse guy but will help when I have to travel for work. This horse uses his size to intimidate him and the fiance hasn’t been smart enough to think ahead and carry the sweat scraper of something else with him.

Vet comes out on Monday, will get him to pull testosterone then.

OP, Do not leave your fiance in charge of this animal. If the horse is ‘thinking bad thoughts’ and your your fiance does not have enough experience to think two steps ahead of this horse, he should not handle this horse, At all, ever. Doing so is dangerous.

A sweat scraper is too short, and lets a horse get too close. Take a whip!

I agree with those who have said,

Everyone who handles a horse, trains that horse. They train it to be better, or to be worse.

This horse does not need mixed messages, he needs consistency.

[Jealoushe]

A very simple blood testosterone test will tell if he is chryptorchid. I had one and had the surgery, it was a huge life and game changer for him. Sounds similar to this guy,

[LookmaNohands]

@Color of Light

LOL! I think the OP’s horse would run her over and kick the snot out of her if she practiced what the Fairy Meditation Voice says, as found on your link. The “Chair Challenge” is fruitbat sounding “guided meditation” (for a human). This is not Liberty Training for a horse. Although, a horse is part of the props in this “guided meditation”. Other props: chair and a reed (to keep the horse away from you as you’re sitting in the chair).

From the bullet points in the intro:
~ You will receive a guided meditation by email each day for 21 days.

~ Only use a horse that you feel safe to sit down in a chair with and who will be calm in your presence.

Written description in the intro:
“The Chair Challenge was developed so that you can take some time out of your busy life to slow down and get plugged back into your well-being. The challenge is that you live each day for the next 21 days focused on feeling a sense of connection and well being with things as they are. From this well-being you will get back to your true nature; back to when you felt free and the world was your playground. This awareness will open a door to having your instincts working for you. This 21 day guided meditation is an introduction into the practice of awareness that not only benefits the relationship of your horse, but is an ongoing contribution to yourself.”

In listening to the Fairy Meditation voice of the recordings:

Day 17: "Now shift your consciousness to the energy that surrounds you and all that you see. You are aware of form and formlessness. Walk awhile in this awareness. This awareness will give you a sense of timelessness and a feeling that life is eternal. When you come back from your walk, join your horse in his world and his space once again. Continue to interact with your horse in this way and you will discover the magic in how to connect and how to give room to grow the bond. "

Day 21: “Quieting down in a state of joy through finding neutral brings consciousness without thought and awakens you to your Buddha nature, or to the Source of all creation, simply put, to whatever supports life. In these meditations, experiencing neutral, your life force is fully awake and not being pinched off from the mind disallowing things to be as they are. Your body is rejuvenating, your heart is healing and leading your actions, and your horse is feeling your presence more deeply. In this state you are helping your horse to rejuvenate his well-being.”

You have never tried her program with a tough horse! She has successfully worked with very dangerous horses and stallions. Her program works! Have you read her book? You only use a reed if it is safe to do so. A lunge whip is acceptable if you need it. She developed this method by working with mustangs as a child! Her method is based on reward but also controlling food and territory.

It really works but you have to learn how to do it. It also takes time. It is not a quick fix but it is an effective one! It would work well with this horse.

[Scribbler]

@LookmaNohands

You have never tried her program with a tough horse! She has successfully worked with very dangerous horses and stallions. Her program works! Have you read her book? You only use a reed if it is safe to do so. A lunge whip is acceptable if you need it. She developed this method by working with mustangs as a child! Her method is based on reward but also controlling food and territory.

It really works but you have to learn how to do it. It also takes time. It is not a quick fix but it is an effective one! It would work well with this horse.

Yeah except the trainer herself says to only use a horse that is safe to sit down with and OP agrees this horse is not.

This program is a variant of Equine assisted learning and while there might be some benefit to it. It is about the person not the horse.

Now I am sure trainer has worked with toiugjh horses. That s what trainers do. But this here isn’t her horse training program. It’s her people program. Is difference.

[LookmaNohands]

@Scribbler

Yeah except the trainer herself says to only use a horse that is safe to sit down with and OP agrees this horse is not.

This program is a variant of Equine assisted learning and while there might be some benefit to it. It is about the person not the horse.

Now I am sure trainer has worked with toiugjh horses. That s what trainers do. But this here isn’t her horse training program. It’s her people program. Is difference.

This is not the only program she has. She teaches the Waterhole Rituals based on herd behavior. Still very effective for tough horses. Something to keep in mind. Also this is her book: http://www.equibooks.com/nakedliberty.html