Aggressive behavior and herd bound...

[SouthernYankee]

The good: I have a brilliant 5yo gelding that I purchased last year, he is amazing to ride. He is truly a unicorn in that sense; Athletic, Easy, Quiet, Sound, Pretty, SMART… the list could go on and on. If he wasn’t brilliant, and I do not use that word loosely, he would have been sold by now…

The bad: Let me start with saying I’m fully capable of handling his behavior and he’s pretty honest about telling you when he’s going to pull something. He is fine for me to handle, less experienced people (the fiance) he tries to bluff and the fiance is intimidated by his size. I think this is learned behavior from somewhere in the first 4 years of his life.

He is generally getting better, but there are still moments. He’s an ass to deal with on the ground. He can tend to be a little cow kicky and makes ugly faces. He doesn’t know personal space, a swat with a flat sweat scraper fixed that issue. He paws if I don’t turn him out immediately when he is done eating, hobbles fixed that. He fidgets during grooming or bathing, once again the sweat scraper comes in handy… I’ve tried the nice approach and flat work, it’s a dominance thing and once we had a few CTJ (come to Jesus meetings) he was fine.

He is herd bound at home, like if I ride someone he runs the fence screaming and if I ride him we have to stay within eyesight of the other horses. But he is fine when I haul him somewhere, we foxhunt, he whipped in all season and was fine with horses and hounds coming and going. He is trying to work his way up in the the pecking order with the herd. He is turned out 24/7 in a group of 5 horses including him, 3 mares and 2 geldings. The rest of the herd gets along fine and no one has bite or kick marks. He is getting more and more aggressive in the herd…

The ugly: Last night as I was getting ready to feed and he got my homebred mare cornered in the run in and proceeded to scream and kick the ever loving crap out of her. Yelling at him had no affect, he only quit when I started coming at him with a 2x4 (it was the only thing within reach when it started). Once the fight was done it was done. He kicked the wall and was mildly limping. She is missing hide and has welts all over her barrel but seems no worse for wear. She’s just going to be a little sore for a few days. The only reason he didn’t do more damage was because he was backed up right to her kicking and didn’t get her with full force. I hate to think how it would have turned out if I hadn’t been there to break it up.

I moved him into his own pasture overnight where he spent the night running, pacing, and screaming for the other horses. He is staying there until he gets over it or kills himself. At this point I don’t care.

This is not feed related as there have been other kicked boards in the run in shed, but there haven’t been any marks on horses. Locking them out of the run is counterproductive as that is their only form of shelter. The farm isn’t really set up to keep horses separated. Any other idea how to work him through it? I’ve had him 10 months and I figured they would have their pecking order sorted out by now, things seem to be getting worse not better. The only think that has changed in his routine lately is that he’s had some time off since hunt season is over, he’s gaining weight and overall looks great.

Could ulcers be causing this Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde? He hasn’t been scoped but the vet is coming out next Monday. Wouldn’t they cause inconsistency? Thanks all for any insight.

[Simkie]

He might just be a jerk who can’t successfully live with others, but ulcers could cause some of what you’re seeing. My stupid herd bound mare is definitely more stupid and more herd bound when her belly is bothering her, and she’s also just more of an ass to the other horses. She’s really very stoic, so I don’t see a “typical” ulcer presentation in her.

It sounds like you have a really good handle on who he is and what it takes to manage him. Scoping or just treating for ulcers is worth a shot. Keeping him in hard work might also help, and he might settle with more age. At five, he’s smack dab in prime hooligan territory. But be prepared that this might just be who he is…

[SouthernYankee]

@Simkie

It sounds like you have a really good handle on who he is and what it takes to manage him. Scoping or just treating for ulcers is worth a shot. Keeping him in hard work might also help, and he might settle with more age. At five, he’s smack dab in prime hooligan territory. But be prepared that this might just be who he is…

I’ve been told that 5 is the worst year… fingers crossed that he does grow out of it. I have fought with liking him because he was supposed to be a resale project, but he’s just too dang good to ride that I’ve convinced myself to keep him… now if he hurts my baby (she’s 4 and not small) then the story is going to change… she will never be the athlete that he is but she’s my #1.

[tazycat]

Feeding time can be when fights start. My paint gelding can be a real jerk. Before I bring out feed he gets tied up.Solves him going after pally gelding kicking and biting him.

pally is my herd bound one god forbid paint isn’t in sight he loses all sense.

Is there a way you could tie up the gelding before you bring out feed? Some are just jerks and it never changes so have to work around it.

My two live peacefully together for most part. Feeding time is the issue…I know that so to avoid drama I tie paint up.

[Cataluna]

No real advice here, but I was taught that mares and geldings are never mixed in turnout, ever, because of altercations like this (geldings causing the problems). Any way you could split up the boys and girls?

[quietann]

Any chance he is proud cut or a cryptorchid?

[Florida_Gator]

Sounds a little like my boy! It takes a lot to manage him and consistency is key. Now that he’s home and he doesn’t get away with the things he did while boarding, combined with 24/7 turnout, he is loads and loads better. Is there a way to keep to a routine work schedule for your guy and keep him in a pasture alone? This has worked very well for my boy as well.

[tazycat]

@Cataluna

No real advice here, but I was taught that mares and geldings are never mixed in turnout, ever, because of altercations like this (geldings causing the problems). Any way you could split up the boys and girls?

That doesn’t always work i’ve seen all geldings in turnout with no mares and there are altercations. Same with all mares together there can be altercation,feeding time is the worst time for this stuff. I have 2 geldings and there are altercation almost daily it revolves around grain time…if top dog isn’t tied up.

[ladyj79]

I do mixed turn out most of the time.

I definitely tend to go with the Stampy the elephant lesson: some people are just jerks.

I have seen horses severely injured, even permanently, from getting pinned in a run in. I personally haven’t done group turnout in any place with a run in or at least one that wasn’t open on three sides because I did see a career ending injury in my teens and this is one way I try to avoid that.

[fordtraktor]

I have one horse who can be aggressive to other horses in the paddock. he has his own field and stays there. I wish he could be turned out with others but it is not happening.

I do mixed turnout. He is a jerk to horses of any sex. None of my other gelding/mare groups give me any trouble at all, just that one horse. Mine is fine to handle though I maintain boundaries and run a tight ship with him. He also is a joy to ride and far more docile under saddle.

Mine can get riled up when I am riding other horses so I shut him in a stall if I’m riding anything that will be bothered by him galloping full speed past (his field is adjacent to the arena).

I know he’d love a friend but honestly, the last time I had him out with another horse he took advantage of my sweet, everyone loves her pony when she was rolling – he was literally jumping on top of her pounding her with his front legs. I chased him off, got the pony out and that was the END. When I saw that I was DONE with trying to find him a friend situation – I had never seen a horse break the equine code of leaving you alone while you are down. Pony was fine but scared, understandably. I felt so awful because she could have been really hurt. I really had no idea he could be that bad (before it was always normal gelding roughhousing taken a little too far).

[SuzieQNutter]

Herdbound I understand. Herdbound is the horse going mental in the paddock when you are riding another particular horse that goes out of sight. But you are saying you can’t ride away from the other horses and you are saying he gets upset no matter who you ride and he is not left alone and is with other horses. That is not part of bring herdbound.

I would say he is acting stallion like and may not have been cut correctly. Even if he has been cut correctly you need to handle him as a stallion.

Stallion or not. When he is under saddle he goes where you say and when you say. Stallion or not when on the ground he does what you say and when you say. He must be polite with you.

In mating season stallions kept separately do run around in the paddock. They do lose weight. So you do need a safe paddock for his shenanigans

We used to run an Agistment property. Every horse had its own paddock. Over 50% of our clientele were horses that came to us because they had been attacked by other horses when agisted with other horses. One had a broken wither. The injuries were horrendous.

[SouthernYankee]

Unfortunately the sellers did not and have not offered much insight to his past. I’m not even 100% sure he’s the breed that he was advertised as… so I don’t know how old he was when he was gelded or if there were complications with the surgery. He does not have a studish face so I would assume it was young, but that is an assumption. As far as I can gather he was with his breeder until they passed in early of 2016, then he was sent to a trainer for breaking (as a 4yo), spent 60 days there, then sold to the people I bought him from who had him for 4 months. I do not know how much handling he had from 0-4 years old.

@tazycat During feeding time I’ll normally close off the run so they can’t get boxed in anywhere. But last night they were still out on pasture when I got to the barn and I didn’t close it off first thing. I agree that had I ordered things differently there would never been an altercation. However that doesn’t excuse him for his behavior. I wasn’t pouring feed. I wasn’t messing with hay. I was in the barn cleaning when they came up… yes I know they don’t know the difference. But they snuck up on me before I realized it… had I known they were up I would have quit doing what I was doing and gone out there immediately.

Everyone may be onto something about his stallion like behavior. The mares are in raging heat which may be causing his behavior to escalate. His attack was on the ‘baby’ of the old boss mare who is really in love with him lately… He has not shown any aggression towards the other gelding, but then again the other gelding has lived most of his life in single turnout and is generally anti social with everyone.

I do handle him like I would a stallion, I’m always aware of his body language and ready to put him back in line. I’m typically a mare person and am very comfortable establishing myself as ‘boss mare’. It’s so aggravating because he has moments when he’s so sweet.

@Florida Gator Consistency has helped him greatly. When I’m managing him 100% of the time he’s better. When I travel for work and the fiance feeds he tends to ‘act out’ at feeding time when I come home. Not because anything has changed, but because I wasn’t there. He’s so bullish with the fiance that I’ve given up on having him swap out blankets.

He is currently in a safe 3 acre pasture with 5’ tall Centaur fence. I’m not worried about him injuring himself on the fence, my only concern is the pacing and running. But he’s smart and body aware. I don’t stall my horses, they live out 24/7 on grass so a run in shed is a necessity for them to get out of the weather.

Thank you everyone for the feedback, it looks like I may need to address his management and look into individual turnout for him. We can add fence off one of the stalls if needed to give him his own run that leads out to the pasture. But that would be a last case scenario, and he would have to resign himself to solitary life. Something he is not handling well at the moment.

[LookmaNohands]

If you are up for working him through this with a training program, I highly recommend Carolyn Resnick’s Water Hole Rituals. www.carolynresnickblog.com It is a very effective and unusual program of Liberty training. It could help with this kind of behavior. I would also recommend TTouch if you can find a practitioner near you.

You might also talk to your vet about this.

[Simkie]

Seroquine could be worth a shot. I use it on my mare that’s in this same ballpark and I do think it evens her out a little. It doesn’t sedate, but I think it gives her a little time to process before she loses it.

Where is he in the herd hierarchy? Is it possible he’s moving up, or trying to? Is your older mare number one? Perhaps he’s thinking that her flirtations have improved his position and that’s he’s hot shit now. (Teenaged boys, sigh.) Any chance you’ve got a horse that will take him down a peg or two?

[mfleming13]

He may just be the type that has to live by himself. My mare is that way. She’s wicked with other horses, but unlike your guy is pretty antisocial when she wasn’t trying to attack the horses she used to be outside with. We separated her and she was happier, then she started going after horses over the fence - then she got to go in a stallion type paddock that didn’t touch any other fields. She is perfectly content there. Your gelding may be better off on his own and is likely screaming/pacing the fence because he’s a little studdish and the mares are in season. Give him a few days in there and see if he settles.

[SouthernYankee]

@Simkie

Where is he in the herd hierarchy? Is it possible he’s moving up, or trying to? Is your older mare number one? Perhaps he’s thinking that her flirtations have improved his position and that’s he’s hot shit now. (Teenaged boys, sigh.) Any chance you’ve got a horse that will take him down a peg or two?

He may be trying to move up, I had considered that. Of the 5 he is in the middle of the pack, sometimes he pushes #2 & 3 around, sometimes they push him around. But the old mare is boss, her being in heat and actually nice to him may be what is giving him the confidence to do all this. Boss mare will take him down a peg or two when she’s finally not in heat. And she would have murdered him if she caught him beating on her daughter (she’s still overly protective). She’s not aggressive in her leadership, more of an ugly face warning then if they don’t get out of her way she reminds them of who’s boss… but she’s mellowing out in her older semi-pasture sound state.

He is very much in the leggy zit faced teenage phase at the moment. He’s loosing his baby look and still growing a lot. It doesn’t help that he’s the biggest horse in the herd by quite a bit…

[EmilyM]

have you tried putting him on Medroxyprogesterone? it can curb the aggressive behavior.

[SuzieQNutter]

When you are away you Fiance is training him. There is no just feeding him. It is training him. Every time he is interacted with he is being trained and it is just as easy for him to learn the wrong thing as it is for him to learn the right thing.

[IndysMom]

some horses just can’t go out with others. I have one of those. he’s just too stupid. he either beats up the other horse or gets seriously kicked himself. so, he’s on his own until he retires.

[DJohn]

I like the idea of learn to be alone or die in the process. Seriously.
He sounds like an ass that needs some time away from the herd. I would leave him alone. I don’t like mares in with geldings. My old appy gelding was fine with all geldings, bottom of the herd. If you put him with mares, he would beat up everyone else and mount/boss the mares around. He was also extremely herd bound.

My current gelding had bred one mare before I got him (was a rescue of sorts) I gelded him immediately at 2 or 3 yrs old. He was turned out alone for a while and he could have cared less. Never a peep in the other horse’s direction. He then went into a small herd and quickly became the “boss”. I say this because I have never seen him kick/bite anyone, they are just scared of him for some reason
. He went in with my old appy and my SOs horse and he protected my old appy until he was PTS. He then moved to a large herd, and he is once again the boss but also herd bound when they go out on pasture. I almost think he’s calling to the grass, because he is OBSESSED with grass. It is super annoying but he never misbehaves, he just screams to his buddies. If I do ground work, he immediately stops the calling.

It sounds like you know your stuff. I wouldn’t be tolerating a horse double-barreling another for no reason. I hate mean horses! I’d let him live his life in solidarity for a good while until he behaves better for you on the ground. Do lots of ground work and get him focused. All of his bad behavior stems from him thinking he’s a stallion/the boss. When I got my guy, he was unbroke/untrained and the first thing he did was strike out and hit my wrist. He got a good crack across the bum with the leadrope immediately after and he NEVER struck again. He just didn’t know there were consequences.