Aggressive gelding

[TheBlondieEquine]

Hey guys, in for a long post here I apologize in advance. If you’ve come to hate on me for ‘my’ methods please know I’m just doing what they’re telling me to do.

I attend a university that has a colt starting class essentially. In summers I work for a private ranch training a lady’s horses, (mainly tune-ups, and have brought multiple back to the show ring). She has a lovely (and very valuable) holsteiner gelding that was “technically” broke two years ago, but not really. The horse was sent to a cowboy for 2 months, and then sat doing nothing since. This horse is about 16.2 hh, almost 5 years old, was gelded last March and still thinks he’s a stallion, and has NO respect for personal space.
So I brought him to school to train under supervision.
We’ve been working a LOT on personal space, but I’ve started to encounter aggressive behavior when working with him, and not gonna lie it terrifies me. I’ve been told I don’t show fear and I get after him ‘correctly’ but on the inside he still scares me.
He’s a heavily distracted horse and has the attention span of a toddler.
He does not respond to being hit when he is pushy, he shrugs it off as nothing so my professor has me using other aids like a dressage whip to back him out of my space when he won’t.
The first day he seemed aggressive to me, I was cleaning his stall, standing by his hip and asked him to move over. He responded by kicking me in the leg. I smacked him HARD, but this just encouraged him to kick at me again.
He’s also starting to get a bit nippy, but when hit for trying to bite, he pins his ears and either tries to bite again or immediately turns his hip toward you (to try to kick).
During round pen work he has been very good, I make him work as best I can. The round pen is a bit small for him so he doesn’t canter a full circle, mostly trotting.
I have him in saddle and bit, can pick up three feet on a good day, and has started to get the hang of lunging without dragging me around the arena.
But yesterday he was totally uncooperative. My professor said I needed to get him tacked anyway. He wouldn’t stand in cross ties (in stall) like he has been able to the last week or so, I had to tie him to a post in the stall and somehow got a saddle on that thing. I brought him back to the round pen because he just needed to blow off steam.
He went around and around and around. Usually he is lazy but there was too much excitement going on in the barn so there was no paying attention to me so I kept him going around for the rest of class. What scared me yesterday was he started to fight the whip (and me), I’d have him going around, he’d start to act lazy so I’d activate pressure and he full on lunged at me. Like something out of a wild stallion documentary ears pinned, neck arched, tail raised, teeth bared. I hit him HARD with the whip, but this seemed to only anger him more, he went around the circle and then did it again, this time I caught him hard on the neck. Seemed to be enough to make him stop lunging at me but you could tell the drive was still there.
I’ve never worked with a horse like this before. Please don’t tell me to get someone more experienced, this is a class at school and I’m required to train this horse. I WANT to train this horse, I just need support please. My professor is tired of having to deal with him.
I also feel uncomfortable beating the crap out of him in the school setting, there’s so many people around and so much judgement, I hate it but it’s how it is.

[Scribbler]

Well, yeah. Find a different equine studies program. Or find a different trainer and place for the horse. The common sense tactics that work for most horses do not work for the outliers.

First I would get the horses testosterone levels checked to know what you are dealing with. Second I would not be cleaning the stall with him in it.

Here in order of priority is what you need to have in place before you think about evrn saddling a horse.

1. Manage the energy levels. If you have a young hot horse they need to run off the wiggles at liberty whether that’s run and buck in turnout or life on a field.

2. Manage the mood. If your horse is afraid, angry, amped up, spooky, etc you cannot do any training until he is in a calm receptive headspace.

3. Manage attention. You need the horse to focus on you at all times. If you don’t have #2 and #1 sorted, then #3 won’t happen.

Only when you have these 3 things in place can you proceed with training or tacking up. Skip them and you get hurt.

IMHO this is likely the wrong program and wrong environment for this horse. He needs a quiet wide open spaces kind of place with 24/7 turnout to get #1 and #2 and he needs open ended ground work in a suitable arena including liberty work until you get #3, attention, installed.

Also on a strategic note this horse is doing you no favors as a class project because he doesn’t fit the parameters of the program. You are not free to explore and learn and follow your intuition here, your main job as a student is to please your teachers by obeying them, not learn how to handle a troubled horse that requires thinking outside the box.

From what you have said your teachers here have no useful instruction in how to cope with this horse, and the facility is unsuitable and increasing his issues.

If you persevere, you are will get hurt, other people may get hurt, the horse will get hurt and will deteriorate, and at some point you will need to choose to disobey your teachers or do dangerous things not in the best interest of the horse. Either way you lose.

Send this horse home and stick with horses that can function within the defined parameters of the program so you can graduate with decent marks. Then you can go find ground work and problem horse trainers to apprentice with to learn how to actually train.

[Scribbler]

@TheBlondieEquine

Hey guys, in for a long post here I apologize in advance. If you’ve come to hate on me for ‘my’ methods please know I’m just doing what they’re telling me to do.

I attend a university that has a colt starting class essentially. In summers I work for a private ranch training a lady’s horses, (mainly tune-ups, and have brought multiple back to the show ring). She has a lovely (and very valuable) holsteiner gelding that was “technically” broke two years ago, but not really. The horse was sent to a cowboy for 2 months, and then sat doing nothing since. This horse is about 16.2 hh, almost 5 years old, was gelded last March and still thinks he’s a stallion, and has NO respect for personal space.
So I brought him to school to train under supervision.
We’ve been working a LOT on personal space, but I’ve started to encounter aggressive behavior when working with him, and not gonna lie it terrifies me. I’ve been told I don’t show fear and I get after him ‘correctly’ but on the inside he still scares me.
He’s a heavily distracted horse and has the attention span of a toddler.
He does not respond to being hit when he is pushy, he shrugs it off as nothing so my professor has me using other aids like a dressage whip to back him out of my space when he won’t.
The first day he seemed aggressive to me, I was cleaning his stall, standing by his hip and asked him to move over. He responded by kicking me in the leg. I smacked him HARD, but this just encouraged him to kick at me again.
He’s also starting to get a bit nippy, but when hit for trying to bite, he pins his ears and either tries to bite again or immediately turns his hip toward you (to try to kick).
During round pen work he has been very good, I make him work as best I can. The round pen is a bit small for him so he doesn’t canter a full circle, mostly trotting.
I have him in saddle and bit, can pick up three feet on a good day, and has started to get the hang of lunging without dragging me around the arena.
But yesterday he was totally uncooperative. My professor said I needed to get him tacked anyway. He wouldn’t stand in cross ties (in stall) like he has been able to the last week or so, I had to tie him to a post in the stall and somehow got a saddle on that thing. I brought him back to the round pen because he just needed to blow off steam.
He went around and around and around. Usually he is lazy but there was too much excitement going on in the barn so there was no paying attention to me so I kept him going around for the rest of class. What scared me yesterday was he started to fight the whip (and me), I’d have him going around, he’d start to act lazy so I’d activate pressure and he full on lunged at me. Like something out of a wild stallion documentary ears pinned, neck arched, tail raised, teeth bared. I hit him HARD with the whip, but this seemed to only anger him more, he went around the circle and then did it again, this time I caught him hard on the neck. Seemed to be enough to make him stop lunging at me but you could tell the drive was still there.
I’ve never worked with a horse like this before. Please don’t tell me to get someone more experienced, this is a class at school and I’m required to train this horse. I WANT to train this horse, I just need support please. My professor is tired of having to deal with him.
I also feel uncomfortable beating the crap out of him in the school setting, there’s so many people around and so much judgement, I hate it but it’s how it is.

I went back and read this post again after I posted.

You should not be working with this horse period. He is way above your current skillset and you do not have intelligent direction on what to do.

If you are curious look up the basics of round penning and the “join up” idea. It looks to me like you absolutely missed that point in your round pen work and kept up the pressure until the horse felt he needed to defend himself. Look up the concept of pressure and release. Release is what the horse learns from, not pressure. It’s when you release and relax that the horse knows he did what you want. That’s such a basic concept in horse training, if you don’t have that you have nothing.

I’m not being super critical of a beginner trainer having a really bad session so much as I am of none of your teachers coming to intervene. Did they see this? Did they approve? Did they have suggestions?

Anyhow my advice from my other post still stands. Send this horse home. He’s above the skillset of both you and your teachers. He is losing his mind in this environment. You are going to teach him to attack people. You will get hurt. Do not enter his stall while he’s in there. Not to clean, not to tack.

[Pepsy]

Please please please, listen to Scribbler. Years from now you will realize there is nothing positive you can do for this horse or yourself in the situation you are in.

[2DogsFarm]

Agree this setting is not going to help this horse & you stand a good chance of getting hurt.
Please advise HO she needs to get a different (more experienced) trainer to rehab this horse.
A 1 on 1 setting, not part of a busy school arena will help him learn, but you need the skillset to refocus his aggression.

Many years ago, I watched a timid gal try to work with the “more suitable” TB mare the trainer had talked her into buying to replace the little Appy gelding she loved.
Suitable meaning better Look for the Hunter ring
Mare would come in off the longeline, ears flat, neck snaked at this gal.
She was afraid of the mare & mare knew it. Trainer was no help, focused on other clients with showring pocketbooks.
Story ended when they took a fall that broke the rider’s leg badly.
That had the mare up for sale pronto.

[cayuse]

This is not putting yourself at risk for. I agree with everyone else on this. Plus I have a mini that was aggressive, very similar to what you describe. He is 270 pounds and to be honest, at his worst, he scared the snot out of me. I can’t imagine having to work with a full sized horse that had this behavior that wasn’t mine. With help I got the mini sorted out, but he still “is who he is” and requires me to be on my toes. I would not do it again with a different horse. Be safe.

And if you choose to continue to work with this horse, please wear a helmet.

[swmorse]

Have to agree with everyone else. Don’t continue putting yourself in danger with this horse. Your ‘teacher’ should work with him now if anyone does

I wonder if he’s a cryptorchid and wasn’t completely gelded

[endlessclimb]

I don’t even think being a crypt would cause this necessarily. Plenty of stallions are well-mannered.

This horse either a) has learned the behavior gets him something or b) has a screw loose, which some horses absolutely do.

Not every horse can be fixed. Plenty of non-aggressive 5 year olds out there to learn on.

[Scribbler]

Yes, wear a helmet and a cross country vest and good gloves and do not go in his stall.

This kind of horse does not go to regular colt starting programs. He needs a specialist in problem horses to evaluate and try to help.

He may not be truly vicious or aggressive but his current management is making him unsafe.

[AllSport]

“You are not free to explore and learn and follow your intuition here, your main job as a student is to please your teachers by obeying them, not learn how to handle a troubled horse that requires thinking outside the box.” THIS.

While I agree with others that this horse should definitely be moved on, I did want to add another aspect to this. Negative reinforcement with this horse is causing increased negative behavior, if I read that right. I get that a lot of the negative reinforcement is for safety reasons but it’s starting to fail. Until the horse leaves, carry treats and reward the hell out desired behaviors. Press the reset button, all the way to zero. Don’t push him to do anything until you become a positive association to him first. Do not spoil him though, that’s not at all what I mean! Timing is important. But the biggest priority should be sending him elsewhere.

[Arlomine]

You are getting really terrible advice from your instructor. I don’t know what program you’re in, but you need to leave and get a better one.
I know that’s harsh, but you are not being given the service you have paid for. You are not being taught how to train this horse correctly. I know that you feel like you’re failing this horse, but in reality your instructor is failing you and the horse. It is not your fault that you have not been given the correct tools to deal with this horse.

Furthermore, from how you have described this horse, he is not a candidate for colt starting program at a college. This is not the time for you to be over faced with an extremely difficult and out of the box type of horse. Your instructor again is failing you, and this horse should be pulled from the program because he is in appropriate.

I have been around some very large, very opinionated and aggressive warmbloods. The methods you are being taught are not working. You are going to get hurt. You can get hurt in a way that is going to keep you from working with Horses for the rest of your life. This is not worth it.

I am not sure which channels you need to take, possibly your parents need to intervene. If you are feeling unsafe because the horse is Inappropriate for the program, then that does not reflect poorly on you.

Your instructor is missing a huge opportunity to actually teach. Not just by teaching you how to deal with this horse, but by stepping in and saying sometimes you are in over your head, and you need to know when to send a horse you have in for training to somebody else who is a specialist in the area this horse needs. All trainers have to do this at some point or another. None of us can be the right person for every horse at every stage of training.

[Arlomine]

I’m going to offer an opinion here. With this type of horse, offering treats can backfire in a big way, unless the human is very well-versed in the parameters of R+ training…you can end up with a very pushy horse banging you on the head like you are a stuck gumball machine.

[AllSport]

Very true! I have an Equine Sci degree and animal behavior background so I know timing is everything. My main emphasis is moving the horse on. I just wanted to offer a tid bit of another way to think about his training for the interim since the horse probably isn’t leaving in an hour :o)

[candyappy]

What kind of instructor / school/ colt starting class uses ( basically) whipping the horse to get any result?

Look at your post again. All you are doing is hitting him. No wonder he is aggressive & fearful.

I hope you take the good advice on here and send him home to his owner and find a horse you can actually work with, learn on and enjoy it as well.

[ThreeWishes]

I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying. One time in my 40 years of owning horses I owned and loved a horse who reacted only with escalation at negative reinforcement. I mean like if you gave a 1 you got a 2. If you gave a 2 expect a 4.

And he was only a candidate for treating if you understood positive reinforcement and had perfect timing. And only after he respected what was being asked of him. Ultimately it was patience and the release of pressure that made him a good citizen. It sounds like there is a rush for success/ improvement with this horse and too much pressure. Some horses don’t won’t and will never be magically fixed because the semester is coming to an end. This horse needs an experienced problem solver with a mountain of “feel”. OP doesn’t have it yet nor the guidance to do it. That’s not a slam. It’s a plea to keep the OP safe and the horse from being pushed inappropriately to do something he’s not understanding or perhaps able. It will end badly.

[Gardenhorse]

@Arlomine

You are getting really terrible advice from your instructor. I don’t know what program you’re in, but you need to leave and get a better one.
I know that’s harsh, but you are not being given the service you have paid for. You are not being taught how to train this horse correctly. I know that you feel like you’re failing this horse, but in reality your instructor is failing you and the horse. It is not your fault that you have not been given the correct tools to deal with this horse.

@Arlomine

I am not sure which channels you need to take, possibly your parents need to intervene. If you are feeling unsafe because the horse is Inappropriate for the program, then that does not reflect poorly on you.

Your instructor is missing a huge opportunity to actually teach. Not just by teaching you how to deal with this horse, but by stepping in and saying sometimes you are in over your head, and you need to know when to send a horse you have in for training to somebody else who is a specialist in the area this horse needs. All trainers have to do this at some point or another. None of us can be the right person for every horse at every stage of training.

This. Please don’t get yourself seriously hurt. If your professor won’t listen to you about your concerns about this horse, is there someone else you can talk to? Another professor in the equine program? The director?

[endlessclimb]

If a horse comes at me like the way OP describes, you bet your behind I’m going to do whatever it takes to get him off of me. I’m not going to assume he’s bluffing, ever.

This horse sounds like a spoiled rotten 5 year old who knows exactly how big he is, and exactly what to do to get out of doing anything not on his agenda.

He also sounds genuinely aggressive, and should be sent to a trainer experienced in this type. Most like this never 100% let it go. It’s always lingering right under the surface, waiting for a weakness.

[NaturallyHappy]

And some really do hold grudges in a big way.

[Heinz_57]

I agree this is not the program for this horse, but since you asked for direction…

Look up Warwick Schiller, Mark Langley, and Tristan Tucker. Watch as many videos as you can about leading, ground work, handling, approaching the horse, problem horses… Become very aware of the way you move, stand, look, think, project your energy around this horse. Of how much pressure you put on him, how fast or slowly you increase that pressure, and when you release. Stop beating the crap out of him, he doesn’t understand it and it isn’t helping.

If you want to do this horse justice: Go back to square one and start over. Leading. Basic handling.
Creating manners does not equal hitting him every time he makes a mistake. You need to learn to recognize him being uncomfortable/anxious/defensive before he gets to the level of kicking and charging, and give him safe ways to diffuse. I would stop interacting with him loose - no cleaning his stall with him loose, no more round pen until you get a handle on speaking his language.

All that said, there’s no guarantee he will be ready to ride while you’re still taking this class. Do not even think about throwing a leg over unless he is 100% solid in every skill leading up to that.

[shiloh]

OP - for the love of god and yourself, send this horse away. He needs to be handled by a professional. You aren’t learning ANYthing except to be afraid (and don’t think that isn’t happening because it is) and he is learning that he can be a bully. He will need someone to keep him in check all his life. If he is not fun and untrustworthy on the ground he isn’t likely to improve under saddle.

I have had a horse like this and she was no fun. Trust me - BTDT. Don’t/won’t want to do it again. No-one wants to bash you, we want you to be around for awhile, in one piece and having fun and actually learning something.