Aggressive horse - please help!!!

[st_francis]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8217300]
Sorry, but I do think it is unethical to re-home an animal to someone who is not equipped to care for it or is likely to be injured by it. Would you re-home a dog with a history of behavior issues or aggression to a first time dog owner?

If not, then how could you consider it okay to re-home an problem/aggressive animal weighing 20 or so times that? Sorry, but it’s not okay. OTTBs can be fantastic horses, but the point I wish to emphasize is that just as when buying a horse, no matter who you are adopting or buying from it is still “buyer beware.”

I care about animals, I love thoroughbreds, and I care about the OTTB cause. But, I still put human safety above the goal of getting a horse re-homed. Most OTTBs do NOT act like this horse, however, many of them are still not suitable for a first time horse owner without a trainer to assist them.[/QUOTE]
Of course there probably was some kind of interaction that led them to believe that the adoptee was capable of handling the horse. I’m sure we all wish we had a crystal ball and could see the future . Sounds like they were up front about what kind of horse this is.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=betonbill;8218217]
The only “mommy” that Tapaway has is a mare named Victory Road. He has an “owner” who seems to be living with butterflies in fairyland.

(Sorry–the mommy description is something that drives me up the wall.)[/QUOTE]

Agree with Dewey… posts with suggestions and help for the OP, who (if we judge her posting history) is looking for help and seems quite mature are very appropriate. Jabs at her signature line (heck, there are posters here named Dobbinsmom, ETC) is completely out of line.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8212806]
I don’t work with New Vocations and I’m not aiming this comment specifically at them, but I have seen well intentioned people and TB rehoming organizations more than once re home TBs with really questionable behavior issues (and in one case seriously NQR) to new owners that were in over their heads.[/QUOTE]

Feeling a little disappointed here. I think highly of NV. I am disappointed that they would re-home a seemingly known hard-to-handle OTTB with a newbie owner and not steer her towards an easier project horse.

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=RackNRoll;8218109]
His ad said he “has no stable vices” so it sounds as if the biting may be a recent development?

http://www.horseadoption.com/horseprofiles/tapaway/

At any rate, he doesn’t sound like a fun horse, especially for someone’s first. I agree with everyone else… I’d take him back and look for another.

ETA I like this one: http://www.horseadoption.com/horseprofiles/action-figure/
Love what they say about the temperament on this one… plus I’m a sucker for a dappled bay.:)[/QUOTE]

I agree.

They have some amazing Standardbreds available for adoption right now on their website who would probably make lovely family horses for the novice horse owner.

I have Arabians (and one Evil Mini), but I can’t say enough good things about the Standardbred temperament.

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=RackNRoll;8218109]

ETA I like this one: http://www.horseadoption.com/horseprofiles/action-figure/
Love what they say about the temperament on this one… plus I’m a sucker for a dappled bay.:)[/QUOTE]

I love everything about that horse. Exactly the type I’d be looking for. If only, LOL…

[LauraKY]

Oh, I would take Tapaway in a heart beat. I’ve always liked the difficult ones that just need a firm hand and a confident owner. The placid ones I find boring.

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8218361]
Feeling a little disappointed here. I think highly of NV. I am disappointed that they would re-home a seemingly known hard-to-handle OTTB with a newbie owner and not steer her towards an easier project horse.[/QUOTE]

We have no way of knowing anything like that. It’s quite possible that everything looked good, and there was no reason to suspect there would be a problem.

Honestly it’s not even clear how much of a problem there is, since the OP’s description could be “needs manners help” or “aggressive mean horrible horse in the making” - a lot of the opinions here are based solely on her use of the word “aggressive.”

But either way, I know from my own limited experience it’s entirely possible to have someone put a few good rides on the horse, get along great, have everything look good on paper, then have major problems crop up down the road (either the horse’s living situation isn’t quite right, or the rider has a weakness that nobody saw initially that the horse has had enough of over time, or the horse develops some soreness somewhere with new work and doesn’t deal well with it).

I have no doubt that NV’s primary concern is that the horse is in a home that is a good match for his personality, since that is the safest and best thing for him. Hopefully OP has contacted them for their advice.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;8218416]
We have no way of knowing anything like that. It’s quite possible that everything looked good, and there was no reason to suspect there would be a problem.

Honestly it’s not even clear how much of a problem there is, since the OP’s description could be “needs manners help” or “aggressive mean horrible horse in the making” - a lot of the opinions here are based solely on her use of the word “aggressive.”

But either way, I know from my own limited experience it’s entirely possible to have someone put a few good rides on the horse, get along great, have everything look good on paper, then have major problems crop up down the road (either the horse’s living situation isn’t quite right, or the rider has a weakness that nobody saw initially that the horse has had enough of over time, or the horse develops some soreness somewhere with new work and doesn’t deal well with it).

I have no doubt that NV’s primary concern is that the horse is in a home that is a good match for his personality, since that is the safest and best thing for him. Hopefully OP has contacted them for their advice.[/QUOTE]

I don’t generally disagree with you that sh*t happens and screening isn’t always perfect.

That being said, NOTHING about this horse’s description by NV themselves suggests he’s an appropriate first horse. Unless the OP flat out LIED to NV about her experience-- I cannot fathom why this, of all horses, was adopted to a first time horse owner. I’ve seen the NV adoption contact, it asks for quite a lot of information. Unless the OP flat out LIED, I am very disappointed in the judgment exercised here. That horse’s description might describe a good horse for lots of people but even in NV’s own positive “spin” that is NOT an appropriate first horse. NV’s own assessment was “Tapaway is a steady ride for an intermediate rider who is a patient, experienced handler.” That is NOT a “first horse” candidate. Not if you’re responsible, anyway.

I suppose it’s possible that the OP lied completely, but barring that I think this was a glaring mismatch and I am disappointed it happened.

She was honest here that she’s a first time horse owner…

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?467760-Adopting-an-OTTB!!

And it sounds like NV helped her pick tapaway in particular even though she looked at several horses.

Sounds like he’s been hard to handle since the day he came home…

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?463524-Nice-dressage-prospect-NV-Tapaway

Not a good sign. Especially for a horse already off the track and in retraining for 3 years.

Assuming the OP was as honest with NV as she’s been here, I am scratching my head and why THIS of all horses was the one they matched her up with.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=caffeinated;8218416]
We have no way of knowing anything like that. It’s quite possible that everything looked good, and there was no reason to suspect there would be a problem.

Honestly it’s not even clear how much of a problem there is, since the OP’s description could be “needs manners help” or “aggressive mean horrible horse in the making” - a lot of the opinions here are based solely on her use of the word “aggressive.”

But either way, I know from my own limited experience it’s entirely possible to have someone put a few good rides on the horse, get along great, have everything look good on paper, then have major problems crop up down the road (either the horse’s living situation isn’t quite right, or the rider has a weakness that nobody saw initially that the horse has had enough of over time, or the horse develops some soreness somewhere with new work and doesn’t deal well with it).

I have no doubt that NV’s primary concern is that the horse is in a home that is a good match for his personality, since that is the safest and best thing for him. Hopefully OP has contacted them for their advice.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a very good post, and articulated what I was incapable of. Until the OP comes back, we do not know the whole story. I would not be so quick to vilify either OP or NV until the OP comes back and weighs in.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8218458]
NV’s own assessment was “Tapaway is a steady ride for an intermediate rider who is a patient, experienced handler.” That is NOT a “first horse” candidate.

---

Assuming the OP was as honest with NV as she’s been here, I am scratching my head and why THIS of all horses was the one they matched her up with.[/QUOTE]

I will say you can be an experienced handler AND an experienced rider without ever owning a horse. We don’t know the OP’s handling or riding experience. Maybe NV did. Maybe the OP has plenty of experience with green horses but has never owned a horse herself… it’s possible, we see it all the time with riders in their 20s.

Personally, I don’t see a 1st time horse owner as being a bad thing. There are posters on this board who have never owned a horse that are very experienced. As long as OP is working with an experienced trainer, which she is…

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8218464]
I think this is a very good post, and articulated what I was incapable of. Until the OP comes back, we do not know the whole story. I would not be so quick to vilify either OP or NV until the OP comes back and weighs in.[/QUOTE]

For the record, all I said was that I was feeling “a little disappointed” in NV. I am not sure how that’s “villifying” them, if your comments were directed to me.

I think when you’re adopting out horses you really have to hold yourself to a higher standard than the adoptees. You’re the “pro” in the transaction and the one who knows the horses better. I’ve had great experiences with OTTBs (including hearing great things aboyut NV) and I definately think of them as one of the “good places” and hate to hear about situations like this involving them.

I hope they take the horse back, assess his issues, and rehome him with someone more equipped to handle him. The OP seemingly has only had him since June 11th so it’s been less than a month.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8218472]
For the record, all I said was that I was feeling “a little disappointed” in NV. I am not sure how that’s “villifying” them, if your comments were directed to me.

I think when you’re adopting out horses you really have to hold yourself to a higher standard than the adoptees. You’re the “pro” in the transaction and the one who knows the horses better. I’ve had great experiences with OTTBs (including hearing great things aboyut NV) and I definately think of them as one of the “good places” and hate to hear about situations like this involving them.

I hope they take the horse back, assess his issues, and rehome him with someone more equipped to handle him. The OP seemingly has only had him since June 11th so it’s been less than a month.[/QUOTE]

Nope, wasn’t directing to you in particular (but my second/double post did). I agree with you about the above - I’d be curious to see what is really going on between OP, Tapaway, and NV. I think we need more to the story.

[KandC]

I’ve been following this since it came up.
Point 1: now I am terrified of adopting from NV; definitely dumbing down my experience because I don’t want anything hard to handle.

Point 2: OP must have had (or embellished- sorry to speculate) adequate experience. In the NV application, they state they do not adopt to first time horse owners unless there is sufficient experience prior. That being said, I’m not sure how/why this description was appealing to OP as a first time horse owner. I have TB experience (limited, but dealt with my fair share of cranky broodmares and irritable yearlings), and I would not consider him.

OP- no shame in sending him back before he seriously injures you or someone else. He needs a firm enforcer of boundaries (and even then, he may always be rank), and if you can’t dish out the punishment or “persuasion”, send him back now.

If a vet can get near him, work him up and look for pain everywhere. I’ve handled many dogs who would love to eat my face (vet tech/vet student) until the pain is gone, and become cuddle bugs or… at least… not hungry for human flesh. Pain may be a motivator for the aggression; if you don’t want to send him back just yet, work him up and see if he’s hurting.

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=KandC;8218516]
I’ve been following this since it came up.
Point 1: now I am terrified of adopting from NV; definitely dumbing down my experience because I don’t want anything hard to handle.[/QUOTE]

Don’t be terrified! You don’t have to “dumb down” your experience description either, just be very up front about EXACTLY what you want and that quiet/safe is your priority. Even if you’ve ridden at the Grand Prix level and worked the circuit as a horse whisperer, if you say you want “quiet” as your priority they will help you find quiet.

If you’re nervous about agreeing to things without trying the horse first or vetting it, you may want to look for a different org or a private re-seller, but I think the vast majority of people who have gone through NV have had good experiences.

[st_francis]

She probably said she would work with a trainer.

[Kwill]

Sometimes horses get in a new environment and their insecurities and worries cause them to behave very differently than in the previous home.

This could possibly be happening here, especially with this horse who already has behavioral quirks.

[vxf111]

I work with a trainer and I still handle my horse 99% of the time aside from when he’s turned in/out and fed. Even working with a trainer, a beginner is going to handle her horse A LOT and horse that needs a patient, sensitive, experienced handler is probably not ideal for a first time owner even if she’s been around lots of horses before.

[SmartAlex]

And it might not even be her doing. It might be primarily the barn staff. It may be a combination of a lot of factors.

[BeeHoney]

@KandC;8218516

I’ve been following this since it came up.
Point 1: now I am terrified of adopting from NV; definitely dumbing down my experience because I don’t want anything hard to handle.

I don’t think you need to be terrified either. But, just as with ANY horse acquisition, if you don’t have the experience to critically evaluate a potential horse for yourself, bring someone with you who can. Some people are great riders or have a reasonable amount of horse experience, but don’t have experience in evaluating sale horses. You need to know what to ask and also how to listen, and most importantly how to stay focused and look at a horse critically, without being distracted by one impressive feature (like good looks, or a famous parent) or a desire to “save” a horse that isn’t appropriate.

And for a horse that is biting people on the ground, I don’t think that “working with a trainer” is adequate. Practically speaking, most of the time when a horse is handled on the ground for feeding, turnout and grooming a trainer won’t be there. Also, I’d venture to say that a horse that has bitten two people in a short period of time is reasonably going to require professional or semi-professional handling for a while–and possibly for the rest of its life.

[Bogie]

I suspect there is a lot we do not know about this situation. Since the OP has not returned, let us hope that she and New Vocations are working on the best solution for this horse.