Aggressive puppy...any suggestions? Update #45 & #162

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Aeternitee;8565104]
We are going through a similar thing, except our puppy is 6 months old now. We got him at 8 weeks and he came from a pretty savage litter of shelter pups. We did observe them at the shelter and none of them displayed any bite inhibition toward the others - just spent their time trying to tear each other’s skin off. We picked the least aggressive one, and thought that nurture would take care of the issue.

But at 6 months, and neutering recently, and he still will sometimes growl at us if we are handling him when he doesn’t want to be handled. He doesn’t bite, but will growl. He is very vocal in general. And he is mouthy - we have worked so hard to get him to stop play biting and mouthing as his default interaction, but are starting to be exhausted, because we expected more results by now.

We took him to puppy class and during free play periods, spent all our time pulling him off other puppies and keeping him from harassing them. He played rougher at an order of magnitude way beyond what was normal for the other puppies his age.

Now we’re thinking of rehoming him because he is getting pretty big - probably up to 35 - 40 lbs now at 6 months old - and we’re worried about the future. Argh! And yet he’s brilliant. He learns tricks instantly - but we can’t seem to modify his behavior.

I’ve never had this much trouble with a dog before. shakes head[/QUOTE]

If he’s really that smart, you should be able to train through these behaviours. It really isn’t fair to decide to make him some one else’s problem now that he’s hit the tough teenage phase. You need to get him in to a plan for more training, possibly with a trainer with a different skill set. These aren’t unexpected problems with what you observed in the litter as babies. These are the things that whoever was raising the litter should have been addressing t 5/6/7 weeks of age. Sometimes the human has to help teach bite inhibition early on.

[cloudyandcallie]

Your breeder is right. Take the puppy to the vet and have it put down. One time in one of my obedience classes, a woman with a cute Dalmatian puppy told me that she’d had a series of Dals from her breeder but that the last one had been aggressive. She was told to put it down and did so after obedience school did not work out. The puppy she had in our class was fine and from the same breeder.

Sometimes it just happens. Not your fault and not the fault of the breeder. If your breeder will swap him for another puppy then do that. Breeder will probably put him down, so do not question the breeder as to what will happen to him.

My breeder (Las Rocosa Australian Shepherds) will take puppies back for any reason. Listen to your breeder.

[Aeternitee]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;8565185]
Have you looked into following this protocol?
http://careforreactivedogs.com/
You can also join the “reactive dogs” group on Facebook for some ideas and support.[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU for this link! I appreciate it. This board is so helpful!

[french_fry]

Whatever you do, please don’t follow advice to physically punish the dog when he displays antisocial behaviors. Best case scenario it won’t help, but punishing a fearful dog is proven to make many (most?) behave more aggressively.

It sounds like you did everything right with socialization so I am a bit concerned that be is so reactive to new people. Unfortunately, these “aloof” breeds can’t always overcome the nature side of things. However, he is pretty young and getting him with a veterinary behaviorist couldn’t hurt.

[Rallycairn]

Wait, some posters have said “when the bite occurs” but he hasn’t actually bitten, has he? Just growled and snapped? And NOT at his family, right?

Just consider all those factors. You sound pretty savvy about the situation but it is important to accurately assess what is really going on and what circumstances make him growl and snap.

Not necessarily to the OP’s dog, but in general I always feel I want a dog to growl and I don’t punish growling PER SE because I want a dog that gives a warning, not a dog who thinks, “ok, I’m not allowed to growl, so I’ll just go straight to biting” but again that’s a general rule/perspective. I’m always a little surprised at the notion that the growl itself is something to inhibit or punish out of a dog – I’d rather address what was making him growl rather than have him actually punished out of growling.

Anyway, sorry for the slightly OT comments. OP you definitely have a difficult pup on your hands and I would hope the breeder might still consider a swap rather than expecting you to euthanize, but you’ve had some good recommendations here. For the record I’m not saying don’t euthanize, rather just hoping you can clearly delineate the circumstances that set him off and decide if that is something you can live happily with – without assuming he’s doing something he isn’t in fact doing (that is, being aggressive with his own family).

But if his behavior is so out of line with your experience of other Shar-Peis, maybe he does have a screw loose, so to speak. Best of luck with a difficult situation. No shame in swapping him out or euthanizing once you’ve got a clear-eyed assessment of the situation.

[Sswor]

If the puppy’s got to go, I vote do it asap, before you get even more attached/reluctant. I’d listen to the breeder over people on the internet. Tough situation, really sorry this is happening to you.

[RPM]

[QUOTE=gloriginger;8565107]
Great, so pass him off to someone else and let him be their problem.[/QUOTE]

What I was thinking too, gloriginger.

Sswor, I think OP has listened to the breeder and doesn’t like what he says (and who can blame her?) so is asking people on the internet hoping for alternate solutions. Kinda clutching at straws (and again, who can blame her?)

I would hope the breeder might still consider a swap rather than expecting you to euthanize,

The breeder has already offered to do a swap.

OP, you may never be able to trust this dog. Will you always be there every single time he is interacting with your children and other people? Will you always be able to get there in time?

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=french fry;8565368]
Whatever you do, please don’t follow advice to physically punish the dog when he displays antisocial behaviors. Best case scenario it won’t help, but punishing a fearful dog is proven to make many (most?) behave more aggressively.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Punishing a dog for growling will make the dog stop growling, and go right to the bite. The growl is the warning that a bite is the next step. You do not want to punish the warning out of a dog.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8565105]
if it were me, i’d probably keep him home and watch him like a hawk – and the second he demonstrated any of that behavior to a family member he would be PTS.[/QUOTE]

My mother has an untrustworthy Rottie. She can’t go on vacation because she can’t get anyone to care for the dog. He’s actually pretty good at the vet’s so he may be OK in a kennel for a weekend, but at home, he has to be crated when extended family comes in (especially my uncle), nearly wrecks the house when deliveries are made (Mom has them drop things at the barn instead), has to be crated all day when she watches her grand daughter. I can walk in there, tell him to back down and do what I need to do but I would never try to touch that dog.

It’s no fun living with a dog you know is a liability.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8565481]
I agree. Punishing a dog for growling will make the dog stop growling, and go right to the bite. The growl is the warning that a bite is the next step. You do not want to punish the warning out of a dog.[/QUOTE]

Maybe, or maybe not. I don’t think growling is acceptable either.

I agree with the recommendation to consider a veterinary behaviorist; but I’m not sure I’d be willing to keep a growling/snapping dog in my home with kids and try to work through the problem.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8565572]
My mother has an untrustworthy Rottie. She can’t go on vacation because she can’t get anyone to care for the dog. He’s actually pretty good at the vet’s so he may be OK in a kennel for a weekend, but at home, he has to be crated when extended family comes in (especially my uncle), nearly wrecks the house when deliveries are made (Mom has them drop things at the barn instead), has to be crated all day when she watches her grand daughter. I can walk in there, tell him to back down and do what I need to do but I would never try to touch that dog.

It’s no fun living with a dog you know is a liability.[/QUOTE]

this is where i disagree with many posters then - A. I don’t think this dog deserves a CTJ meeting or physical reprimand and B. I don’t think this dog is untrustworthy from what OP has given us – we have fosters, and I’ve lived with untrustworthy dogs. The untrustworthy ones don’t growl and they bite you as soon as they can - this dog seems to have done everything to warn the OP that he is uncomfortable. I’d be curious to learn more about the situation - were these strangers trying to pet him, etc?

Some dog breeds, like Shar-peis, simply aren’t going to be blossoming social dogs despite many hours of socialization - it is just not in their nature and is like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

Again, OP’s situation is nothing like what the other posters said they are going through. Those posters have dogs that threatened them - this poster has a dog that has growled at strangers. Night and day.

[NCRider]

Swap it out with the breeder. Better to leave the difficult dogs with the professionals. It may be completely unstable or it just may not be the dog for you but before it gets older and you get more attached, I’d move on and give it the best change to turn things around. That’s what I think you should focus on. What is this dog’s best chance of long term success. That’s probably in the breeder’s hands.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8565593]
this is where i disagree with many posters then - A. I don’t think this dog deserves a CTJ meeting or physical reprimand and B. I don’t think this dog is untrustworthy from what OP has given us – we have fosters, and I’ve lived with untrustworthy dogs. The untrustworthy ones don’t growl and they bite you as soon as they can - this dog seems to have done everything to warn the OP that he is uncomfortable. I’d be curious to learn more about the situation - were these strangers trying to pet him, etc?

Some dog breeds, like Shar-peis, simply aren’t going to be blossoming social dogs despite many hours of socialization - it is just not in their nature and is like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

Again, OP’s situation is nothing like what the other posters said they are going through. Those posters have dogs that threatened them - this poster has a dog that has growled at strangers. Night and day.[/QUOTE]

Sorry - just re-read the OP - I read it too quickly - I thought the snapping was directed at the owners as well. So, yes, I would handle this differently because it does seem to be fear-based, not just the dog being generally grumpy and opinionated.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=S1969;8565582]
Maybe, or maybe not. I don’t think growling is acceptable either. [/QUOTE]

I didn’t say that anyone should be ok with a dog that growls. But punishing a dog for growling not the way to address the issue. You’re just going to end up with a dog that bites for sure, because you won’t be able to tell when it’s coming once there is no warning growl.

[Crockpot]

I may have missed it- but has the puppy been neutered? something to consider?

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8565593]
Again, OP’s situation is nothing like what the other posters said they are going through. Those posters have dogs that threatened them - this poster has a dog that has growled at strangers. Night and day.[/QUOTE]

Mom’s Rottie is fine with her and her husband. That’s where he draws the line. No extended family, friends, contractors, delivery people may cross the threshold. I no longer interact with him even if they have him because he is more protective when they are present.

[meaty_ogre]

He has not yet been neutered. Our vet usually does it around 6 months.

Trying to answer other questions I’ve seen… He does usually growl before snapping but has snapped once or twice at folks attempting to pet him without growling first. He has actually bit a few people. I have not hit him; punishment is he goes to his crate immediately.

He is very different from our two previous dogs from the same breeder. He does have different bloodlines. He is gorgeous. Our other dogs were very loyal to us but leery of everyone else, but never aggressive. They would just get up and leave if given unwanted attention. This one is very bold and undeterred. I have to redirect him from chewing furniture and other no-no’s very frequently. He doesn’t shy away from anyone, whereas out other two looked more to us for guidance it seemed. Yet, he is obedient for me and my husband. We don’t let him on the furniture or sleep in our bed (I’ve been told that can be very bad for aggressive breeds… Makes them think they are equals). We have exposed him to more than our previous dogs attempting to socialize him. Maybe we have overwhelmed him? He gets lots of exercise. They are a lazy breed but be gets 2 long walks, and he and my other dig play in our indoor daily. The other dig is a terrier mutt who lives to fetch and dig. The shar pei can’t be bothered lol.

[MsM]

Having kids in the picture changes everything. You might be able to deal with his issues, but I doubt that he would be trustworthy around your kids or especially their friends. I would do the swap ASAP.

[Crockpot]

He had not yet been neutered. Our vet usually does it around 6 months

Yes but in view of the aggression issues might be worth discussing doing it earlier

[JackSprats_Mom]

So first off, I would not euthanize the dog BUT I would rehome her with full disclosure. Aggression in puppies is actually more common then people think. That said it is workable and dogs like that can suit other adult only homes.