Aggressive puppy...any suggestions? Update #45 & #162

JMO you have a puppy with a “sharp” temperament. Having children changes the dynamic but you say the dog has never shown any aggression toward the children? True? The kids take his toys etc, and he’s fine right?
The main problem seems to come with strangers be it friends or family. He doesn’t like to be petted and becomes very stressed when faced with new people. What about on his walks? How does he behave then?
What did you want to do with this dog? Is he a pet, show, working dog?
How important is the social aspect of your life? Does the dog have to be just as social as you? Can you tolerate having a dog that has to be gated when company is over?
The breeder has offered to swap puppies. Why haven’t you taken him/her up on the offer? Do you like a challenge, do you love his looks, conformation etc? WHAT DO YOU WANT THIS DOG FOR? This SPECIFIC dog? The answer makes a world of difference because to keep everyone safe, the dog needs to be trained well and managed. He may be the wrong puppy for you in your present lifestyle.

I have read nothing here that says the puppy needs to be PTS. He may need a different owner, no crime there.
Only you can answer the questions. And be honest with yourself. It’s better for the dog.

And yes, aggressive breeds should never be allowed to sleep on your bed because if you allow that at some point when he reaches maturity he made decide it’s his bed not yours or your kids. Then you have a problem, a big problem. Give him a nice bed on the floor and teach him the “place” command. That can also be one way of dealing with company. He has a bed, he’s told to go to “place” and stay there. NO petting. NO taking the dog to work. He has told you he is stressed. Pay attention to what the dog is telling you.

You know how many barn owners have a sign that says My Barn My Rules? In your case it’s My House My Rules. The NILIF approach. The puppy has to earn what he gets. Teach him to sit on command and then He sits before he eats, he sits before you open the door, he learns “place”, etc. He esp learns to heel! I had a dog trainer who specialized in aggressive dogs tell me that “heeling” is the first command he teaches because it’s the most unnatural. Most dogs don’t heel without being taught. Heeling automatically sets the human up as more in control than the dog. Dogs sit on their own, they lie down on their own, they even go to their bed on their own. We teach foals to lead right away. There is a reason why. It’s so we have control. And you do it with kindness and firmness and tiny treats to learn.
He’s praised on high when he does good. And no treats except in training. And then only tiny pieces.

I think you need to consider what you want out of this dog. If, and it may be a big if, you decide to keep him you need a top notch dog trainer. You must have dog clubs around. Usually they are an excellent resource. They know the trainers in the area and you can go and observe how a trainer trains and find out reputation.

OR, the puppy needs to go back to the breeder and I would hope the breeder finds him a different owner more suited to his personality. You haven’t failed if that’s what you choose to do so don’t think that way. The welfare of the dog comes first because he is an animal and has no control over this situation. You are the adult in the room.

OP, my brother had a GSD that was aggressive at 4 months old. She snapped at kids in pet stores–etc. They were concerned because they didn’t have children right then, but knew they wanted children one day.

They sent her to off to doggie boot camp for several weeks at a training academy type place. (they specialize in training police dogs, etc–but they also do problem children like she could be). While she was still aloof and very protective of her family when she was done, she was also great with me and our extended family–and when they had children, she never once took a wrong step towards them. She ended up being a great dog for 12 years and never bit a single soul.

But, it’s expensive. and who knows if it would help your pup. But it’s worth maybe at least seeing if something like this is available near you and checking it out. ???

But I also have a child–and he comes first–as I’m sure your kids do. Tough spot…I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.

Agree with pezk all the way.

If he has actually bitten people already I would be worried. If you plan to keep him, he needs to be carefully managed ALL THE TIME.

I have a dog who is reactive to strangers. The behavior is fairly inconsistent - totally fine sometimes, not fine others. It was not disclosed when we got him, and not something we were really prepared to deal with (from the perspective of having experience with this kind of thing).

We have kept him, but we have been doing a LOT of work with him to help him (and we are not professional dog trainers by any stretch of the imagination). We have to be aware of him and his environment CONSTANTLY to identify triggers and his reaction to them.

After discussion on this board, with a behavioral vet and our trainer we also bought a muzzle. He wears this when we go out for walks (which is less to ensure he doesn’t bite, but more to get people to BACK OFF and leave us alone). And he wears it when he meets new people in the house or is around kids.

I know some here would disagree with this approach (indeed some did on my thread here), but this has worked for us and for him. Keep in mind that it is used in conjunction with our training practices - it is not simply a band aid to allow him to behave as he wishes without hurting someone. What it does allow is for us to give him experiences and practice while keeping everyone safe and calm (and for me, the confidence to know I could control any situation). He has also not actually bitten someone - so this is entirely preventative.

With your dog he is either telling you he’s uncomfortable in the situation you are putting him in, or he’s got a screw loose. I think only you can determine which it is, and how you want to manage it.

If he has already bitten people, he NEEDS to be managed 100% of the time. I think you need to figure out what that means, and whether you are willing to do it.

I grew up with a shar-pei females from birth to age 8 or 9. Both were aloof and wouldn’t have hesitated to take a defensive snap at someone coming over a fence or hurting family. However, none ever would have thought about growling or putting their mouth on someone. Aloof is very different from aggressive.

A breeder is usually very hesitant to recommend PTS. I would be strongly inclined to keep the option open.

There are so many wonderful dogs in the world. Your kids deserve to grow up with a fun, safe, and stable family companion.

Well, I’m feeling like this thread was prophetic. He bit my daughter this afternoon. Fortunately the only damage was ripped pants and sock, no broken skin. Obviously this changes everything.

The bite was unprovoked. She was walking in the door after school, and he lunged and snapped at her lower leg. Fortunately I was walking in the door right behind my daughter and was able to grab him immediately.

The puppy is getting one last chance with my SIL. She works with my husband and has also bonded with the dog since my husband took the puppy to work every day until the aggression started. Her children are older (high school and college aged) and she does not have frequent visitors like us. She works part time and will be home with him more, and she has previously rehabbed a pit bull. I’m nervous about the situation, but she is aware of everything that has happened and wants to try a few things before we consider euthanasia. I’m glad that he is getting a chance, and I’m still going to be involved and working with my SIL in getting him properly socialized and behaving acceptably. We live less than .5 mile apart so that helps.

I think I’ve known intuitively for a while that something is not right with this dog, and I also think that I was being overly optimistic/in denial in hopes that he was just being protective of his family or territorial. Our previous shar-peis were both protective and a little territorial, but this little guy has been different. And while today’s events were the first time he showed aggression towards his family, I would be dishonest if I said I was shocked. He has shown aggression towards people to whom he has been exposed on a very regular basis, so the writing was on the wall.

My SIL is under no delusions. She is aware that this dog will never be trustworthy around strangers and will have to be carefully managed. She has several other dogs and the introduction has gone well so far. One of her dogs is a very opinionated dachshund who barked and snapped at the puppy tonight. The puppy pretty much ignored it and was more interested in the other larger dogs, but I’m still concerned about how all of that will go. Maybe this pack of dogs will help socialize him better, and hopefully he can learn appropriate behavior.

OP, just wondering,

Why do you want to keep this dog?

I haven’t had a shar pei, but I have had a number of what I call stranger danger type dogs. I’ve never had one that showed aggression at 4 months old. I’ve always found that you socialize like crazy and when the dog is about 1 to 1.5 you start to see the suspicion of strangers even in a well socialized dog, and it varies by individual. I’ve had individual dogs of breeds with a protective nature that could go anywhere and some that were more suspicious of strangers and required more management, but at 4 months I’ve never seen that. It’s a personal decision and one I hope not to make. Certainly with the dogs that I’ve known that became suspicious in adulthood, the ones I’ve known have been very good with those they know well. My concern would be the young age for this

[QUOTE=S1969;8565582]
Maybe, or maybe not. I don’t think growling is acceptable either.

I agree with the recommendation to consider a veterinary behaviorist; but I’m not sure I’d be willing to keep a growling/snapping dog in my home with kids and try to work through the problem.[/QUOTE]

Depends on the breed. I have a husky cross and she growls all the damn time. She has extremely high bite inhibition, never even offered to bite, even when another dog bit her or when my friends super annoying puppy takes her food. But she sounds ferocious! No bark though, only growling, hissing and weird chewabacca noises.

My understanding is that share peis, like spaniels, have irrational aggression as a known issue in the breed. A friend of mine trains drug dogs and has stopped using Malinois because she had a couple with basically mental illness. It’s not unknown. She has kids so she trains labs and beagles now instead.

Actually biting is difficult enough - biting your daughter’s clothes is way too much. I can understand SIL wanting to take a chance, but with all the socialization and desensitization you have done, and he is still aggressive at such a young age, she has a task in front of her to keep everyone safe. Glad he is out of your house and hope it works out with SIL.

Listen to the breeder, and follow the breeder’s recommendation. It will not get better as the dog gets bigger.

Hope it works out for SIL, but be aware, that by passing him on, it now becomes her responsibility to take on the responsible choice of when is “enough is enough” and PTS a dangerous dog (poor guy is probably mentally unstable from birth, and has something neuro going on, hence the unprovoked/young age aggression-it happens). And, if she decides to ‘keep trying’ with him, it will become an issue for your family-you and your children will have to deal with this dog when you visit SIL, etc.
Personally, with the history you have given and the recent unprovoked bite towards a member of your family/his “pack”, I would conclude something is mentally “not there”, and give him an easy rest (PTS) after a day of calm, and lots of treats.

That is so very horrible and does change everything… I wish you and SIL the best of luck… and if SIL is interested in keeping the dog alive I do strongly encourage the two of you to bring him to the vet and run bloodwork/testing to see if anything is abnormal… but it may be best for all if he is PTS…

I think this dog is telling you who he is. He attacked someone he knew well. With no provocation. That is just not normal.

He will do it again. If this were my dog (and again I am NOT a trainer or anything close to it), this dog would be gone, or at the very least would be muzzled around people. He is an accident waiting to happen.

I so feel for you - I can’t imagine having to deal with this. I know I’ve had tears and turmoil over my guy, and he is not nearly this challenging.

Sometimes the right thing is the hardest thing.

I worry for your SIL’s dogs. Especially the small ones.

I hope she is really really careful.

[QUOTE=pinkpony321;8566474]
I worry for your SIL’s dogs. Especially the small ones.

I hope she is really really careful.[/QUOTE]

I really really don’t understand why you won’t give it back to the breeder. Rehabbing one PB does not make your SIL a professional dog trainer.

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Looks to me like a recipe for a lot of future family tension.

Agreed puppy should go back to the breeder. It’s a shame and a poopy situation but that’s the smart solution–for everyone. Truly unfortunate.

I share all the same concerns, and again I’m going to do my best to help my SIL work with him. She, my husband and I all wanted to give him one final chance. The breeder was going to PTS, not attempt to rehab or rehome. He will be humanely destroyed if it doesn’t work but it’s very hard to give up on such a young puppy.

I dunno…I think as the breeder I would be concerned about having one of my dogs, potentially labeled as dangerous, attached to my name. I wouldn’t want someone who is shopping for a pup though me hearing about that one dog being dangerous, thus losing a sale based on that. A responsible breeder would/should euth a puppy that is not quite right in the head IMO…but I’m no breeder. I vote to give the puppy back to her. Sometimes being PTS is the kindest thing you can do.

[QUOTE=meaty ogre;8566603]
I share all the same concerns, and again I’m going to do my best to help my SIL work with him. She, my husband and I all wanted to give him one final chance. The breeder was going to PTS, not attempt to rehab or rehome. He will be humanely destroyed if it doesn’t work but it’s very hard to give up on such a young puppy.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is hard but I question your SIL’s choice. She has knowingly accepted a dog with bite/aggression issues.

If that dog now bit me or mine, I’d sue her civilly as she knew this dog has bite/aggressions and took him anyway.

I hope she also understands that if this dog bites someone, it will be taken from her and most likely PTS.

while you had basic blood work done, it is entirely possible there is issue with a liver shunt.

this can produce erratic behavior and difficult learning retention. Liver blood draws pre and post eating are often needed to tease out blood levels. urine samples to check for bile crystals may also aid diagnosis.

personoally I think the breeder is being responsible by culling this dog.

i am sorry you have been put in this difficult situation