Aggressive puppy...any suggestions? Update #45 & #162

[QUOTE=spotted draft x filly;8573201]
Yes approaching a muzzled dog is stupid but I didn’t say that. When you enter her house and see a muzzled dog laying there, you’re going to be apprehensive even if you don’t ever plan on approaching or touching the dog. Dogs can sense that and it sends a message to the dog that it’s feared which can turn into bigger problems that a muzzle will not solve.

You guys just don’t get it and it’s setting up the dog to fail.[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day, an owner with a dog that may be reactive must be responsible for that dog. A muzzle protects people, and in my mind is essential if you plan to keep a dog with known issues. It boggles my mind to hear stories of people who have a dog that has bitten people multiple times. Why is that dog not in a muzzle (or locked up)? In my mind that is just completely irresponsible.

Once again I will emphasize that I feel it should be used in conjunction with training.

My guy has never bitten anyone, but he has shown that he is fear reactive, and his reaction is to move towards the threat jumping and barking like a lunatic. He is a big dog, and scary as heck when he does this. The muzzle serves two purposes:

  1. to strangers in public it does most definitely send the ‘leave me alone’ vibe which is exactly what I want. We had a few episodes of people antagonizing/approaching him (after repeated and increasingly strongly worded directives from me), and the muzzle ensures people leave him alone. When people keep their distance he is totally fine - calm, quiet, confident. The muzzle creates a bubble that enables him to feel more comfortable and enables us to take him to places that support his ongoing training.

  2. strangers (to him) who do come over know ahead of time to expect him in a muzzle, and know why. It actually keeps them (and me) CALMER because they know he can’t do anything to hurt them. They can then do the things we ask them to do with confidence to support his ongoing training.

I fully appreciate that crap happens, and that you can’t prevent every possible issue. But you owe it to the dog and to the people around you to try. I’ve had two vets and a trainer tell me he does not appear innately aggressive, which is why he’s still here. He has also shown ZERO aggression to DH and I, and has shown that with practice he warms up to people and is totally fine (parents, cleaning lady, etc). He has not actually bitten anyone at any point, but I am just not willing to take that chance. Trainer and vet fully support our decision.

Many people have the same attitude that a muzzle is bad for a dog - indeed we have dealt with it from a few people. But my experience has been exactly the opposite. I wish I’d bought it sooner.

I feel sorry for the dog in this situation, but I also feel sorry for the next person who is bitten by this animal. I don’t think it’s possible to be 100% perfect at avoiding bite situations, and someone will be hurt again by this animal.

And personally, if I was bitten by an animal with an aggression history, and found out about that history, then my lawyer would be dealing with the situation. I don’t consider suing to be a good thing, but in a situation that was very predictable, and when an animal has already attacked, then I would take that very seriously.

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8573185]
Yes, I will muzzle any dog I own because we lean toward owning the large, protective breeds. Using a muzzle is prudent.[/QUOTE]

I think it suggests you know the dog is aggressive/dangerous, and makes you potentially more liable legally.

If the dog is NOT a danger, I would not want it misrepresented as such. In the event someone ever does get bit by one of your dogs - people would argue that you KNEW the dog was a danger to people.

If you know the dog won’t actually bite…why muzzle it? I guess I missed the point.

[QUOTE=S1969;8573528]
I think it suggests you know the dog is aggressive/dangerous, and makes you potentially more liable legally.

If the dog is NOT a danger, I would not want it misrepresented as such. In the event someone ever does get bit by one of your dogs - people would argue that you KNEW the dog was a danger to people.

If you know the dog won’t actually bite…why muzzle it? I guess I missed the point.[/QUOTE]

maybe to lay-people who don’t know any better… but dog trainers can vouch that many dogs are muzzled for training and it has nothing to do with aggression or dangerous behavior.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8573578]
maybe to lay-people who don’t know any better… but dog trainers can vouch that many dogs are muzzled for training and it has nothing to do with aggression or dangerous behavior.[/QUOTE]

But she’s not talking about for training, she’s talking about anytime people come to the house. Letting the muzzled dog out to play fetch with kids, roaming the backyard with company, etc. I think that would be a harder stance to argue.

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;8573590]
But she’s not talking about for training, she’s talking about anytime people come to the house. Letting the muzzled dog out to play fetch with kids, roaming the backyard with company, etc. I think that would be a harder stance to argue.[/QUOTE]

It’s a for point and I do see where you’re coming from.

However, she’s a GSD and is by nature protective. In an environment with lots of people, kids and other dogs there’s lots of potential for something to happen that triggers that instinct.

I could most likely remove the muzzle and she would be just fine however it doesn’t bother her at all and afforded both her and everyone around her, human and canine, protection so I’m prefer to continue using it.

I’m not worried about legal ramifications since, with her muzzle on, she can’t bite.

I am so excited, I think this is the first thread that I’ve ever posted that has gotten up to 9 pages and even spawned a spin-off!

Incidentally, and totally off-topic, I was bitten by a dog today (NO, not my own!). I went to pick up my kids who were staying at a friend’s house, where they have been many times. I walked in, and my son ran to me, and the sheltie (whom I have met many times, and even taken care of once when the owners were away) ran up behind my son and bit my leg. It was a quick snap, not hard, and no damage. I was wearing jeans and it didn’t tear fabric or skin…basically just a pinch. I was caught off guard and I said the dog’s name, and he immediately sat down. I don’t like it when people anthropomorphize, but I do think the dog was genuinely remorseful. I stayed for a while to chat and give the kids time to clean up their messes, and the dog came over and laid by my feet. I don’t worry at all about sending my kids back there or about the dog biting my kids or anyone else. I think he was guarding his house and my son and didn’t immediately recognize me. Also, my friend did not come to the door to let me in, but rather called for me to just come in, which I think caught the dog off guard. So anyway, that prompted me to come back and leave an update on the puppy in case anyone is interested.

We did consult and involve the breeder before making our decision. This is our 3rd dog from her and we have a great relationship and I want to keep it that way. We considered this possible solution only because the threat to human safety is minimal. My SIL lives on a large farm, where they have few visitors. The kids are all older (high school or college). She already has 4 adult dogs, and her dogsitter happens to be her father, and he was not only up to the challenge but wanting to help as well. We did also consult two dog trainers.

We got this puppy at 8 weeks, which is younger than the other two we got (they were 12 and 14 weeks). I do believe now looking back that he probably could have benefitted from more time with his mother and that he perhaps did not learn sufficient bite inhibition as a previous poster suggested. At his young age and in consideration of that, none of us felt that euthanasia was the only or even necessarily the best option at this point. My SIL is employing a type of flooding training. She has enlisted willing adult family members including her father, myself, my husband and her brother to name a few, to visit the home frequently and dispense the puppy’s food into his bowl a few pieces at a time when we do. This is to help him associate “strangers/visitors” with good things. I also think it has been very helpful for him to be around the other dogs and I feel he is taking cues from them. He appears to be 2nd in command.

Obviously, it is way too soon to declare this a success, but things are looking positive. It helps that he is young, food motivated, more curious than fearful, and a fast learner. Flooding obviously does not work with every dog and if a dog is truly afraid of strangers or severely aggressive with them I certainly wouldn’t recommend it, but at this point it looks like this puppy was a good candidate for this type of reprogramming. I’ll try to remember to update again after more time has passed.

My SIL does not travel often, and when they do, her father is the caretaker of the dogs. We are lucky to have a multi-species vet who does house calls. If the dog needs to go to some sort of specialist vet, he will be muzzled. Other than that he won’t leave the farm. It’s a great fit for him. We travel a lot, and we take our dogs with us (camping), and we have small children, and very frequent visitors, including other small children who come for play dates. Therefore, we were a poor fit for this puppy. I’m very fortunate that my SIL was willing to attempt this. With 4 dogs already, they certainly were not looking for another one, but my SIL and one of her daughters in particular have really bonded with him and again, so far he appears to be fitting in well.

Also, I’m happy to report that my daughter was in no way traumatized and is not fearful of dogs or animals. My son might have been a little different though, he’s younger and more timid. We are fortunate to own another dog who has absolutely the best personality on the planet. We don’t know what he is (mutt from a rescue) but he is my daughter’s constant companion. I agree with the other posters, I definitely don’t want my kids to be traumatized or afraid of dogs.

We got our first shar pei before we had kids. At the time I was unaware of their reputation for personality issues or their history as fighting dogs. Had I known, they probably would not have been my first choice. However, we did do enough research to find an excellent breeder, and were lucky to have owned two of the best examples of the breed that ever existed. They have been wonderful dogs for us. It’s hard to describe their personalities, but I think people who have owned dogs like them will understand what I’m trying to convey; they are so expressive and almost human. They are loving and kind without being needy, and while our first two were not aggressive or leery of strangers, they were always silently watchful and on guard. I have owned other breeds, but I have loved my shar peis most. I feel like they truly bond with their owners. I have owned other very loving and friendly dogs, but they were different. I feel like they would bond with any person who fed them cheese. It’s hard to convey in words what I love most about them, but I’m sure there are others on this board who get what I’m trying to say, who have a favorite breed or type of dog as well. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

My husband and I have not yet decided if we will get another shar pei, but if we do, it will be older so that the breeder will have more time to evaluate the temperament.

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I am so excited, I think this is the first thread that I’ve ever posted that has gotten up to 9 pages and even spawned a spin-off!

Incidentally, and totally off-topic, I was bitten by a dog today (NO, not my own!). I went to pick up my kids who were staying at a friend’s house, where they have been many times. I walked in, and my son ran to me, and the sheltie (whom I have met many times, and even taken care of once when the owners were away) ran up behind my son and bit my leg. It was a quick snap, not hard, and no damage. I was wearing jeans and it didn’t tear fabric or skin…basically just a pinch. I was caught off guard and I said the dog’s name, and he immediately sat down. I don’t like it when people anthropomorphize, but I do think the dog was genuinely remorseful. I stayed for a while to chat and give the kids time to clean up their messes, and the dog came over and laid by my feet. I don’t worry at all about sending my kids back there or about the dog biting my kids or anyone else. I think he was guarding his house and my son and didn’t immediately recognize me. Also, my friend did not come to the door to let me in, but rather called for me to just come in, which I think caught the dog off guard. So anyway, that prompted me to come back and leave an update on the puppy in case anyone is interested.

We did consult and involve the breeder before making our decision. This is our 3rd dog from her and we have a great relationship and I want to keep it that way. We considered this possible solution only because the threat to human safety is minimal. My SIL lives on a large farm, where they have few visitors. The kids are all older (high school or college). She already has 4 adult dogs, and her dogsitter happens to be her father, and he was not only up to the challenge but wanting to help as well. We did also consult two dog trainers.

We got this puppy at 8 weeks, which is younger than the other two we got (they were 12 and 14 weeks). I do believe now looking back that he probably could have benefitted from more time with his mother and that he perhaps did not learn sufficient bite inhibition as a previous poster suggested. At his young age and in consideration of that, none of us felt that euthanasia was the only or even necessarily the best option at this point. My SIL is employing a type of flooding training. She has enlisted willing adult family members including her father, myself, my husband and her brother to name a few, to visit the home frequently and dispense the puppy’s food into his bowl a few pieces at a time when we do. This is to help him associate “strangers/visitors” with good things. I also think it has been very helpful for him to be around the other dogs and I feel he is taking cues from them. He appears to be 2nd in command.

Obviously, it is way too soon to declare this a success, but things are looking positive. It helps that he is young, food motivated, more curious than fearful, and a fast learner. Flooding obviously does not work with every dog and if a dog is truly afraid of strangers or severely aggressive with them I certainly wouldn’t recommend it, but at this point it looks like this puppy was a good candidate for this type of reprogramming. I’ll try to remember to update again after more time has passed.

My SIL does not travel often, and when they do, her father is the caretaker of the dogs. We are lucky to have a multi-species vet who does house calls. If the dog needs to go to some sort of specialist vet, he will be muzzled. Other than that he won’t leave the farm. It’s a great fit for him. We travel a lot, and we take our dogs with us (camping), and we have small children, and very frequent visitors, including other small children who come for play dates. Therefore, we were a poor fit for this puppy. I’m very fortunate that my SIL was willing to attempt this. With 4 dogs already, they certainly were not looking for another one, but my SIL and one of her daughters in particular have really bonded with him and again, so far he appears to be fitting in well.

Also, I’m happy to report that my daughter was in no way traumatized and is not fearful of dogs or animals. My son might have been a little different though, he’s younger and more timid. We are fortunate to own another dog who has absolutely the best personality on the planet. We don’t know what he is (mutt from a rescue) but he is my daughter’s constant companion. I agree with the other posters, I definitely don’t want my kids to be traumatized or afraid of dogs.

We got our first shar pei before we had kids. At the time I was unaware of their reputation for personality issues or their history as fighting dogs. Had I known, they probably would not have been my first choice. However, we did do enough research to find an excellent breeder, and were lucky to have owned two of the best examples of the breed that ever existed. They have been wonderful dogs for us. It’s hard to describe their personalities, but I think people who have owned dogs like them will understand what I’m trying to convey; they are so expressive and almost human. They are loving and kind without being needy, and while our first two were not aggressive or leery of strangers, they were always silently watchful and on guard. I have owned other breeds, but I have loved my shar peis most. I feel like they truly bond with their owners. I have owned other very loving and friendly dogs, but they were different. I feel like they would bond with any person who fed them cheese. It’s hard to convey in words what I love most about them, but I’m sure there are others on this board who get what I’m trying to say, who have a favorite breed or type of dog as well. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

My husband and I have not yet decided if we will get another shar pei, but if we do, it will be older so that the breeder will have more time to evaluate the temperament.

You’re a good person OP.

Glad you and your family are willing to give the puppy a fair chance.

Good luck and I hope it works out.

[QUOTE=4THEHORSES;8573646]
It’s a for point and I do see where you’re coming from.

However, she’s a GSD and is by nature protective. In an environment with lots of people, kids and other dogs there’s lots of potential for something to happen that triggers that instinct.

I could most likely remove the muzzle and she would be just fine however it doesn’t bother her at all and afforded both her and everyone around her, human and canine, protection so I’m prefer to continue using it.

I’m not worried about legal ramifications since, with her muzzle on, she can’t bite.[/QUOTE]

Well, good luck. I hope you never forget to put it on.

[QUOTE=spotted draft x filly;8573201]
Yes approaching a muzzled dog is stupid but I didn’t say that. When you enter her house and see a muzzled dog laying there, you’re going to be apprehensive even if you don’t ever plan on approaching or touching the dog. Dogs can sense that and it sends a message to the dog that it’s feared which can turn into bigger problems that a muzzle will not solve.

You guys just don’t get it and it’s setting up the dog to fail.[/QUOTE]

The whole “sensing fear” thing is overblown. My GSD has met plenty of people that are scared of him and it doesn’t bother him either way. If your dog reacts because he “senses fear,” you have bigger fish to fry. Honestly, a good stable GSD shouldn’t care how strangers “feel” about them. Muzzling when warranted for safety is likely to cause no problems for the dog. Biting someone because people are stupid causes a dog far more problems than a muzzle, imho.

As far as the sheltie biting your leg - they are a herding breed and some, when overly excited (ie, visitors in the home), will nip at heels. It’s still not acceptable behavior, but it’s not the same as an aggressive bite. You were likely being ‘herded’.

Haven’t read all the responses, just wanted to relay my experience. We had a Catahoula, adopted from a shelter as a puppy approx 8-9 weeks old. Catahoulas have a (well earned) reputation for being protective and not good with strangers. I socialized Kate extensively, she became more and more people and dog aggressive as she matured. She NEVER showed any aggression towards “her” family, meaning my husband or myself, or our three children. She would attempt to bite anyone else that came over, including extended family that visited on a regular basis. That being said, we owned her for 15 years. I used to tell people I wouldn’t trade her for the world, but I would never own another Catahoula. I bawled like a baby when we had her euthanized due to age related issues.

[QUOTE=Roxyllsk;8575660]
You were likely being ‘herded’.[/QUOTE]

I thought the same thing, although Zee ran past my son (who was running to me)to pinch me, so I think it was also him protecting. I really think it would not have happened except that my friend did not come to the door to let me in like usual, but just hollered for me to come on in when I knocked. Next time I know to wait by the door!

Any updates?

[QUOTE=Kitari;8607621]
Any updates?[/QUOTE]

Yes! I was actually at my SIL’s house yesterday playing with the puppy. He has settled in there perfectly. It looks like the combination of flooding and him taking cues from the other dogs there has worked wonders. He no longer growls or snaps at visitors. Actually, his response now is to go and sit by the fridge (in addition to feeding him, us visitors had been giving him a piece of cheese from the fridge to help with his re-conditioning).

My daughter was with me, and she played with him both inside and outside the house. She asked if we could take him back home. For a moment I regretted re-homing him, but I still think it was the right thing to do. My SIL’s home was the right environment for him, and honestly it would be hard to trust him again after his initial rough start. I am very glad we did not opt to euthanize him though, and even happier that we were able to find a good solution for him.

My SIL has not taken him back to the groomer, and honestly I’m not sure that she will. He has been to the vet’s office twice since my SIL took him, and was well behaved both times.

Excellent update! Glad it’s working out so well.

Update on my dog: a lot of water under the bridge with him!

We do a lot of obedience training with him and he has thrived on it. I made myself and my family more aware of the reactive dog mindset and we adjusted how we handled him accordingly.

Nowadays,he is super sweet and gentle to his family members and known friends. We are still working to de-sensitize him to strangers, have made some progress with that, but it’s definitely a work in progress. We look back and laugh now at the little tasmanian devil-dog that he used to be - it seems pretty far away now.

At about 1.75 years of age, he is worlds away from the puppy that he was. We are glad we hung in there with him and I really appreciate the info about reactive dogs that was shared on this forum, that was a real turning point for us. Knowledge is power!

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