I ran across this randomly - I don’t even own a dog! It seems like a great idea but I’m wondering about one thing. With the breeders approval it can apparently be changed to full registration (still good here) but someone suggested the breeder may then ask for the difference in price from pet- to show-quality. Seriously? Does this happen? If the pup was sold as an ugly duckling but matures into a swan I still don’t think the breeder should ask for more money to change the registration. In fact, money changing hands there would cause me to question the breeder’s integrity. Does anyone in that world care to enlighten me about this? Genuinely surprised.
Hm. I don’t know if I see it as an integrity thing.
If I buy a puppy with limited registration I am purchasing it as a pet only with a contract to spay and neuter by a certain age. If I go back to the breeder and ask for full registration down the road it means that the animal is show and possibly breeding quality. Therefore, the animal is much more valuable and I could hypothetically make money breeding the animal.
I don’t think it is right for the breeder to approach the owner and then ask for money but if a third party evaluated the dog and recommends that the owner pursue full registration I understand a secondary amount.
Personally, I purchased a very handsome puppy from a fantastic breeder. He was purchased on a pet agreement with a mandatory 6 month neuter contract. He is now almost 2, still intact, and well on his way to having his GCH. His breeder never expected a second price but she approached me about showing him and has had a great deal of oversight about how he is shown and represented. If I had approached her for full registration to show him on my own there might have been a different agreement reached because she would have been giving me the right to handle and represent one of her dogs as my own without her input.
[QUOTE=axl;7098865]
I ran across this randomly - I don’t even own a dog! It seems like a great idea but I’m wondering about one thing. With the breeders approval it can apparently be changed to full registration (still good here) but someone suggested the breeder may then ask for the difference in price from pet- to show-quality. Seriously? Does this happen? If the pup was sold as an ugly duckling but matures into a swan I still don’t think the breeder should ask for more money to change the registration. In fact, money changing hands there would cause me to question the breeder’s integrity. Does anyone in that world care to enlighten me about this? Genuinely surprised.[/QUOTE]
Ehh…it probably happens. My dog’s breeder sells puppies on limited registration for the same amount as her “show” homes. The litter costs the same to raise no matter how great the puppies turn out from a show perspective. And she has a waiting list so she can.
Most of the time the limited registration is to prevent the other party from breeding without permission because they can’t register the offspring. It’s good protection for the breeder because their name is attached to the litter. But if down the road they determine that the puppy is worthy of breeding and/or the owners are responsible/capable, it could be changed.
I suppose if a breeder sells their limited registration puppies for a lot less than their “show” homes, it’s not all that surprising that they may ask for additional payment when they change the registration. Although that might also be a way to determine how serious the puppy owner really is about showing the dog to acquire titles, and then put it through the appropriate health testing that the breeder would want associated with their kennel name.
To be honest, I don’t really see this as a “breeder’s integrity” issue - I’d have more issues with breeder integrity if they sold all their puppies on full registration and didn’t care who was breeding them.
Limited registration allows puppy mills to sell stupid people poorly bred dogs
[QUOTE=casper324;7099039]
Limited registration allows puppy mills to sell stupid people poorly bred dogs[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? That puppy mill puppies are bred from limited registration dogs? Or that puppy mills sell only limited registration puppies? Not following.
Limited registration isn’t a bad thing…if I were a breeder and was selling a puppy as a pet (either because it isn’t nice enough to show, or more likely because I was selling it to an owner that was not experienced enough to breed a litter I would want my name attached to) - I would sell the puppy on a limited registration.
[QUOTE=casper324;7099039]
Limited registration allows puppy mills to sell stupid people poorly bred dogs[/QUOTE]
I really do not understand this statement.
[QUOTE=casper324;7099039]
Limited registration allows puppy mills to sell stupid people poorly bred dogs[/QUOTE]
How is it the limited registration allowing this?
I guess I just think the price is the price. If the pup turns out better than the presumably very knowledgeable breeder expected it’s the buyer’s good luck. I didn’t really consider that the breeder might have limited the registration because they didn’t want the owner showing the dog or breeding it DESPITE high quality. I was just thinking they didn’t want inferior dogs to be bred.
Having bred horses in the past, I think it would be great to retain complete discretion over show careers and future breeding while still getting paid the full purchase price for all of my foals. I also know that there’s no way in hell anyone would ever buy one with those restrictions! I guess that’s why I just can’t wrap my brain around dogs, because that seems absurd even writing it down 
hey, if it works, go for it!
My older Chessie just has a limited registration. We bought her that way with full knowledge that if we decide to breed her, in order to get full registration, it would cost us more money. Willingly agreed to this. Ended up spaying her after her elbow xrays were questionable, so it didn’t matter, but it saved us $1,000.
[QUOTE=axl;7099138]
I guess I just think the price is the price. If the pup turns out better than the presumably very knowledgeable breeder expected it’s the buyer’s good luck. I didn’t really consider that the breeder might have limited the registration because they didn’t want the owner showing the dog or breeding it DESPITE high quality. I was just thinking they didn’t want inferior dogs to be bred.
Having bred horses in the past, I think it would be great to retain complete discretion over show careers and future breeding while still getting paid the full purchase price for all of my foals. I also know that there’s no way in hell anyone would ever buy one with those restrictions! I guess that’s why I just can’t wrap my brain around dogs, because that seems absurd even writing it down
hey, if it works, go for it![/QUOTE]
Yeah, but in comparison - horses aren’t cheap and easy to breed.
If a dog breeder spends a lifetime putting titles on good dogs, carefully choosing breeding partners, following the puppies to see how they turned out (to prove that their breeding theories were correct), taking puppies back if owners couldn’t keep them…they don’t want some yahoo pet owner taking something with their kennel name on it and breeding it to anything that moves. Selling “pet” puppies with limited registration prevents (to some degree) this happening, although of course people might still buy unregistered puppies. But probably not for very much money.
People don’t buy most horses as pets either. So if someone bought one of your foals “as a pet”, you might see why the idea of a limited registration thing would be a great idea. Someone who has no plans to train, ride, or show the horse, but might breed it using your breeding reputation as a way to make money…if you could prevent it, you probably would. Especially knowing that before the year is up it could have 8 babies on the ground…
People who buy a puppy “as a pet” (whether because it’s pet quality or simply because they don’t want to show it) are acknowledging up front that they don’t have an interest in doing the things a good breeder should do (showing/trialing, health checks, etc.). If they wanted to buy a puppy “to breed” - they would probably have to demonstrate a lot more for a good breeder to sell one to them.
[QUOTE=axl;7098865]
With the breeders approval it can apparently be changed to full registration (still good here) but someone suggested the breeder may then ask for the difference in price from pet- to show-quality. Seriously? Does this happen? If the pup was sold as an ugly duckling but matures into a swan I still don’t think the breeder should ask for more money to change the registration. [/QUOTE]
I would probably have a problem with this. I mean…if you were sold pick of the litter show quality puppy but he/she never turned out the way the breeder expected and ended up being a pet quality dog…would you get a refund of the difference?
The breeder I got both of my dogs from charges the same price for limited or full registration (I have one of each). As someone else said it cost the same to raise the puppies.
[QUOTE=vtdobes;7099213]
I would probably have a problem with this. I mean…if you were sold pick of the litter show quality puppy but he/she never turned out the way the breeder expected and ended up being a pet quality dog…would you get a refund of the difference? [/QUOTE]
My breeder will offer to take back a puppy that goes over the standard, and/or promise a puppy from a future litter; not sure if she gives a refund, though.
Personally I think that’s very generous - you never know when you buy a “show quality” puppy at 8 weeks what it’s real potential will be. Obviously a disqualifying mark might be seen at that age (e.g. in my breed - black in the coat); but the rest of it is just sort of a gamble. We all hope they are “show quality” but aside from being enormously too big or the wrong color, it’s hard to guarantee a winner at 8 weeks.
ETA: I also have a dog that went very over the standard. The sire’s owner offered to take him back. She might have offered to refund my money but I don’t remember. I didn’t pay very much at all for her; she basically gave him to me to raise and show as her pick puppy but he grew too big.
I’ve never heard of a breeder asking for more money if a pet turns into a show prospect/is shown successfully. Nor does the buyer of a show prospect get a refunded discount if the pup turns out to be pet-only (though some breeders do guarantee to standard or replace a show prospect that has faults that preclude showing).
But the dog world is even crazier than the horse world so maybe it happens.
[QUOTE=casper324;7099039]
Limited registration allows puppy mills to sell stupid people poorly bred dogs[/QUOTE]
Since the mills sell unregistered mutts all the time (designer dogs), or use one of the scam registries (CKC), this doesn’t really make sense. The mills don’t depend on limited registration to get dogs and they sure don’t need it to sell them.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7099617]
Since the mills sell unregistered mutts all the time (designer dogs), or use one of the scam registries (CKC), this doesn’t really make sense. The mills don’t depend on limited registration to get dogs and they sure don’t need it to sell them.[/QUOTE]
I was going to say, most designer-dog breeders churning out cockapeekamaltipoos are “registering” them with the CKC (Check Kashing Club) and selling to people who don’t know one registry from another.
Many breeders I know use limited registration for all their puppies. Then, after health testing at the appropriate times and after the owner shows a sustained interest in competition of some kind, the limited registration is lifted.
I think puppy mills have so many sham registries to use (Continental Kennel Club, American Pet Registry International come to mind off the top of my head), they don’t need to bother with AKC at all, limited registration or otherwise.
Sheilah
So my first Doberman was sold to me on limited registration. Ironically, she was very close to show quality, but grew a bit too tall/long. I know the breeder would have lifted the limited registration if I had actually intended to show her, and had a chance at a title in conformation. No idea if she would have asked for more money as it didn’t happen and I spayed the b. Who turned out to be a bit of a health nightmare in the long run.
My SIL asked me the other day if there were two prices I could choose from on my current pup, as they got limited registration on their husky unless the paid more. When she asked, it was the first time I had heard of such a thing. Where does quality enter into it if the only requirement for full-registration is to pay more? I would think you should require health testing at age 2 and a title before breeding if quality was your concern. The didn’t pay the extra and their female has hip issues now midlife, so it is good that she was spayed.
However, the beauty of a contract is you can put in whatever both parties agree is fair, so long as it is decided ahead of time. There is a risk with any dog that it won’t be show quality. But maybe if you paid more you got the pick of the litter, or second pick and that is worth something too. You can decide what is fair to you or do business with someone else. What I am much more familiar with is that many full-registration dogs are sold co-owned, which seems way more invasive to me than extra money or (what I would favor) testing/titling requirements to get full registration before a litter is produced.
they don’t need to bother with AKC at all, limited registration or otherwise.
No. lots of puppy mills sell AKC registered dogs. They never use “limited registration” because they don’t care what happens later. The use of limited registrations is kind of a sign the breeder cares about what happens to their dogs and bloodlines.
