Is it the protein in alfalfa that gives it a bad name? If not what does? IF so what is an exceptable % of protein?
In that so many people say " I can’t feed alfalfa to my horse, it makes them too hot"???
I had our alfalfa and orchard hay analyzed and the alfalfa came out the best for my EPSM horse. He is fine eating straight alfalfa hay. Could other horses become jumpy/spooky from the same hay? And if so is it in fact the protein % that makes it not good or some other component?
The issue with alfalfa and the “hot” horse is allergies, not the protein.
The average 600kg horse needs about 700gm total protein. That’s pretty easy to do with grass hay, unless the hay intake has to be lowered too much, for some reason.
Whether or not that means there are enough amino acids, such as lysine or methionine, is another story, entirely depending on the individual hay, but if the diet is largely alfalfa, that’s not a worry.
On the east coast, I feed atleast 2nd cutting. On the west coast, I believe it was 3rd cutting or later. Last year, my 2nd cutting orchard grass actually is higher in protein than the alfalfa.
I believe alfalfa has a stigma, more than anything. There was an interesting article in thehorse.com re: alfalfa and ulcers. basically, the research shows alfalfa can buffer stomach acid better than grass hays and therefore potentially reduce ulcers.
Alfalfa can and usually does have more protien than most horses need. dairy quality alfalfa can be 20%-21% protien ( vs grass at 8%-10%0. With that understanding whats the problem with too much protien? Horses will convert excess protien to urea which they piss off as urine. Having too much alfalfa wil cause the horse to urinate more often in order to get rid of the excess. This is undesirable with some horses.
First distance horses are already hard pressed to stay hydrated. excess urination means the horse has to drink and process more water during a period when the horse may not have the water available or the time to drink. Second excess urination in a stall will increase the ammonia in the air, which in a enclosed stall with little turn over in the air can be detrimental to the horses lungs and we humans don’t like the stink.
Another problem with Alfafla ( especially Western Alfalfa) is that it is high in Calcium. This causes a horse to have a heavy lathery sweat vs a light watery sweat. On distance horses where you are trying to keep them cool for extended periods of exercise, you want the watery sweat that evaporates much faster vs the heavy white lather that builds up and coats the hide. Also horses use calcium to trigger the twitch in their muscles. When horses have an over abundance of calcium in their system, they don’t store or produce hormones used to utilize the calcium for the muscle trigger. Which is fine for short duration events. But the distance rider who wants their horse to keep going 5-6 or even 12 hours doesn’t want their horse shutting down because they used up the calcium from breakfast and has no stores or is not efficient at retrieving calcium from the body stores. Again neither of these issues are a problem with a short speed event horse and are more of a problem for endurance horses. Also horses that eat a straight diet of Alfalfa usually upset their Calcium/Phoshporus ratio. Here in Utah (because of the frequency of using alfalfa as the primary feed) there are numerous suppliments sold to correct that ratio. And they are strongly recommended by my vet.
And last but not least, Alfalfa is a pretty rich feed. If you give your horse as much alfalfa as you would grass, they will usually put on weight. That can be great for a hard keeper. But easy keepers usualy find their need to chew is not satisfied by their daily diet of alfalfa. Like giving your horse too much grain, too much alfalfa can make them hot. They just flat out have too much energy. If you are working your horse hard, great, he needs the calories. If he is on a lite work out, he may just act like a kid that has eaten too much sugar.
I do feed alfalfa to my horses. I try to buy hay that has lower protien levels. I try to find farmers with Old stands of hay where there is more grass mixed in with the alfalfa. These are usually cheaper than buying dairy quality hay and a better bargain for feeding my horses.
Is Alfalfa bad for a horse. Maybe, Just depends on what you are doing and how much you feed. It is the main feed here in Utah. It is hard to find grass hay in this part of the country. I know many a farmer who has fed nothing but alfalfa to their horses all their life and the horses have done just fine. My brother in law runs a dairy and he feeds his horses the same dairy quality alfalfa he feeds the cows he’s milking. And they have always lived a long and productive life and are ready to go and rope a calf when needed.
The horses I am feeding are Draft horses, so endurance is not an issue.
They are out in 20+acres of pasture (dried up now), but not sure what the negative is to peeing too much (what is too much and determined by whom?)
So if the excessive protein is eliminated via urine, what is in the alfalfa that gets blamed for making horses “have too much energy” or “hot”?
Unfortunately out of our hay the alfalfa tested better than the orchard for my EPSM draft…but now I am wondering if something (what???) is in the alfalfa that makes otherwise calm horses strung up and spookish???
It’s true that any individual horse’s water intake and urine output, is theirs - individually. But the more protein a given horse intakes (people too!) the more water is needed for the kidneys to properly process it. If the horse is not naturally a good drinker, this can lead to some kidney issues. Otherwise, it’s expensive pee 
So if the excessive protein is eliminated via urine, what is in the alfalfa that gets blamed for making horses “have too much energy” or “hot”?
I answered above
Unfortunately out of our hay the alfalfa tested better than the orchard for my EPSM draft…but now I am wondering if something (what???) is in the alfalfa that makes otherwise calm horses strung up and spookish???
Better in what way - the NSC? That’s certainly an important factor.
[QUOTE=JB;3836631]
It’s true that any individual horse’s water intake and urine output, is theirs - individually. But the more protein a given horse intakes (people too!) the more water is needed for the kidneys to properly process it. If the horse is not naturally a good drinker, this can lead to some kidney issues. Otherwise, it’s expensive pee
I answered above
Better in what way - the NSC? That’s certainly an important factor.[/QUOTE]
yes, better nsc, much better, I would have had to soak orchard to reduce starch.
Sorry, but I still don’t hear where or what makes a horse high from alfalfa.
Not sure how else to say allergies
Allergies don’t have to manifest as hives or bumps or lethargy, it can manifest as “hot” or “high”.
I believe that hotness could be from too much digestible energy (ie calories) coming from more protein (versus more sugar calories in other hays). The horses have too much energy and don’t know what to do with it. It comes out as spookiness, etc.
What does your vet say about feeding your draft horse alfalfa?
I feed some alfalfa hay here but not much. But all the horses get alfalfa pellets and I’ve seen absolutely no hot behavior. I do have a Percheron mare who came here underweight. She eats some alfalfa hay plus Bahia grass hay. She is fine. My draft cross youngsters get a wee bit of alfalfa pellets so that I can keep them off oats and soy. They are growing and need a bit more protein than they can get from hay. They look fabulous and there are no hotness issues with them either.
Alfalfa has a bad rap because people who aren’t careful with introducing alfalfa slowly have foundered their horses. Or they fed just too much alfalfa. You would need to take the same precautions with any grass very high in protein or sugar.
Chew time is important so depending on how easy of a keeper your horse is you might still need to give him the Orchard (soaked) to keep him busy unless you can find some other hay that is low in NSC. Beet pulp might be an option for you too since it is low in NSC. Can you give beet pulp to an EPSM horse?
If you use alfalfa you will need to figure out how to keep his calcium:phosphorus ratio balanced. You can buy straight phosphorus for this task if you do not have a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement designed for alfalfa. If you give only a little alfalfa the calcium ratio might not be so far off that you have to adjust.
Hot or spooky is not something my friends and I have found w/ feeding our draft or light horses alfalfa. We also offer them free choice vits/mins. They’re all on round bales and get supplemented w/ grain (oats, alfalfa pellets) and do just fine. These are Percherons… breeding stallion, broodmares, babies and young crosses. All are as easy going as they can be and usually are.
[QUOTE=JB;3836706]
Not sure how else to say allergies
Allergies don’t have to manifest as hives or bumps or lethargy, it can manifest as “hot” or “high”.[/QUOTE]
Sorry just never heard of allergies having that affect:eek:
Altamont Sport Horses: what % calcium and % phosphorus of alfalfa is optimal? and would providing a mineral block aid in the horses getting what they need?
I wish there was a fact based, not sponsored by any feed company, site that gave good comprehensive nutritional information including all feeds and hay choices! Not a biased site:(
Here’s a site that may help you out:
http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml
The only time peeing too much would be a problem is when a) the stall doesn’t get cleaned (good) enough, and/or b) if not enough bedding is used.
Many, many breeding farms use alfalfa for their broodmares without them being “hot”, many, many individuals use alfalfa for one reason or another, without their horses being “hot”.
Feeding a horse energy, means you also have to give it the opportunity to get rid of that energy. Load it up with alfalfa and keep it locked in a stall: Yes, it will bounce off the wall. Alfalfa is part of all of my horses’ diets and none of them are “hot”.
Ah, sorry I didn’t make that clear.
Altamont Sport Horses: what % calcium and % phosphorus of alfalfa is optimal? and would providing a mineral block aid in the horses getting what they need?
The ideal ca/phos ratio is between 1.5:1 and 2:1. An adult horse can easily handle about 6:1. Foals and youngsters, not well, so they do need a more ideal ratio for growth purposes.
I wish there was a fact based, not sponsored by any feed company, site that gave good comprehensive nutritional information including all feeds and hay choices! Not a biased site:(
It’s called the NRC book 
Ok, that doesn’t have commercial feeds, but that doesn’t matter - you learn the information, more or less, in the book, particularly as it pertains to the most commonly discussed nutrients, and then you are free to make up your own mind about the ingredient list and analysis of commercial feeds. To help with that, without buying the book, you can go here
http://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/
[QUOTE=luvmywalkers;3837788]
Here’s a site that may help you out:
http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml
The only time peeing too much would be a problem is when a) the stall doesn’t get cleaned (good) enough, and/or b) if not enough bedding is used.
Many, many breeding farms use alfalfa for their broodmares without them being “hot”, many, many individuals use alfalfa for one reason or another, without their horses being “hot”.
Feeding a horse energy, means you also have to give it the opportunity to get rid of that energy. Load it up with alfalfa and keep it locked in a stall: Yes, it will bounce off the wall. Alfalfa is part of all of my horses’ diets and none of them are “hot”.[/QUOTE]
Yes that article does help.
My horses are out 24/7 in about 15+ acre pasture.
I’m just concerned now that new horse is getting “up” from alfalfa.
But my EPSM horse that is turned out with new horse must have the alfalfa as opposed to the orchard. Not sure if I can regulate new horses intake since new horse was purchased to keep EPSM horse company!!!
Alfalfa has a bad rap because people who aren’t careful with introducing alfalfa slowly have foundered their horses. Or they fed just too much alfalfa. You would need to take the same precautions with any grass very high in protein or sugar.
I know of a asb/QH mare who foundered 4 times on alfalfa. The owner would not “get” it. I suspect in this case it was because it was too rich in sugars and starches. I do believe that some horses may get hot on it because they are allergic, but I believe in many cases it is because it is indeed too high in NSCs!
(Though low in fructan, alfalfa is high in starch; evidence suggests that the extra protein in alfalfa can stress the digestive system when fed in large quantities.)
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/feeding/feed/fructandanger_032205/
Your regular every day horse does not need alfalfa…way too much protein which in turn means too many calories which leads to obesity.
Dalemma
There’s all levels of protein in alfalfa
Depending on when in the plants life cycle the hay was cut you can have all kinds of levels of protein in the hay from 12% to 25%. So it will depend on the quality of the hay yo are buying. Just don’t feed too much, and if the horses get ‘aggressive or hot’ then stop feeding it.
As for why it makes horses ‘hot or aggressive’, I don’t agree with the allergy theory, but I have another theory (also unproven).
Alfalfa is low in essential amino-acids, and has a lot of non-essential amino-acids. When the essential ones are ‘used up’ then there is all this excess of non-useable ones. Now aas can’t be stored and have to be de-aminated in the liver. The by product of the de-amination is ammonia, which is then reduced to urea.
The urea circulates in the blood (as does some ammonia) and is excreted by the kidneys as urine. That’s why the urine output goes up when you feed alfalfa.
High circulating urea and ammonia in most livestock makes them ‘angry’, they will act very aggressively and can become violent. Thus I am theorising that the higher urea/ammonia levels you get in the blood stream following intakes of legume proteins (alfalfa and soy) makes the horses angry and belligerent.
As I said just my theory, and not proven, though well documented in cattle and sheep.
Yours
MW
Also,
Alfalfa is prone to certain toxins, as I found out the hard way. If it is not cut properly or ends up with water damage it can very easily get fungus growth. The hay can look and smell great, but be a carrier.
I fed alfalfa and my 2 horses with white socks ended up with TERRIBLE scratches, the worst I had ever dealt with, and absolutely relentless. I was tipped off here to pull the falf, did so, and within days it was clearing up. I basically banished alfalfa at that point, but as I started researching the way it is cut, I became suspicious that maybe there was something in the hay.
I slowly started trying alfalfa pellets, ready to stop at any second at the first sign of a blow up. They have been on them 2 months now, no reaction, and actually they are thriving from it.
Just more food for thought, re allergies.
UGH so frustrating and SO much conflicting information
I live at a farm that grows hay and am able to adjust anything in the process to hopefully produce the best hay for my EPSM horse.
This past year I tested all cuttings of alfalfa and orchard and while alfalfa was higher in protein, it was MUCH lower in sugar and starch (an acceptable level for EPSM).
I am attempting to learn so we can grow safe, quality hay.
So much that I read regarding EPSM suggests only feeding alfalfa, then why such problem?
What about cubes that are soaked? I have always given my horses soaked cubes in the winter. I don’t know if they get hot or not, in the cold weather with no turnout I expect them to be spooky - or more spooky then when they are ridden and out all night in the summer. I haven’t noticed any anger though. Makes sense that the acid would cause them to be uncomfortable. I also soak because I thought it was a good way to ensure they got water in the winter, if it causes them to pee more I guess it’s just a wash. The bagged cubes say 15% protein, they eat all the grass hay they want and either a 12% or 14% grain depending on their age.
