All it takes is for good people to do nothing

[NoSuchPerson]

@Horsesismypassion

they are thinking it’s ‘normal’

This. My parents knew nothing about horses and riding. Plus, back in the 60s, girls sports for younger girls weren’t really a thing. We did dance classes and swimming lessons at the Y, but that was about it, so they didn’t really have much of a frame of reference. For all my parents knew, all that yelling and screaming was just how riding lessons went.

You know, I might approach the parent who seems upset privately and just say, “Not all riding instructors call their students idiots and make them cry. There are other places.” But of course, that’s a risk to you if the trainer finds out about it.

[atr]

If you are sitting watching this with the parents, I think you might vocalize your unhappiness with the situation.

And if I were you, I would be moving on. I’ve dealt with a screamer. Never again. I was tense all the time, my poor horse was a nervous wreck.

I’m old, and whilst I take what I do seriously and work very hard at it, at the end of the day, I do this for fun and love.

My regular coach is analytical, patient, encouraging and mostly pretty quiet unless she feels the need to truly emphasize a point or stop something from happening. However she’s no pushover and can be quite relentless at times.

My favorite clinician is the same. I’ve been riding with her for long enough that we are friends so I’m not fazed by her sometimes rather acid sense of humor, which can come as a surprise to some riders who are more used to having their egos stroked. She’s equally quick to hand out praise where its due, however.

I dont believe either of them would ever publicly belittle a client, or indeed scream at someone, unless there was an immediate issue about the welfare of the truly non-voluntary participant in this exercise, the horse.

[red_mares]

It takes

@Horsesismypassion

Wow, I guess in a way it’s “not that serious” because they can opt in or out of riding, that I understand. But in another way, yes it is serious, serious that someone can be that, I’m going to say abusive for want of another description, and that I have seen parents witness it. I need to think on this long and hard, because I don’t know what is best.

I hate to tell you this, but it takes a certain amount of unpleasantness in life to make a strong person. No one ever got tougher, mentally or physically, in an easy, stress free environment.

[Horsesismypassion]

@red_mares

I hate to tell you this, but it takes a certain amount of unpleasantness in life to make a strong person. No one ever got tougher, mentally or physically, in an easy, stress free environment.

This is why it’s hard, I get that you have to break eggs to make an omelette. Today’s lesson was HARD, for some reason the horses were upset, a girl in the lesson before me had to go switch out the one she was riding, because he was so antsy, very out of character. I had trouble getting near the open door, and going past the speaker , she was using the sound system today. Yes I got yelled at, yes I got to repeat some things a few times, but nothing that made me feel like I was failing. I think it’s the best lesson I have had in a long time, just goes to show. I get that riding well is a hard journey, I totally get safety issues, and it’s not the shouting, it’s the belittling that frustrates me. I don’t think kids, read as when I was a kid, have the ability to rationalize that it’s not their issue.

[Texarkana]

Honestly, I’m shocked that some people on this thread seem to be dismissing the OP’s concerns.

First, you need to stop supporting a program that is at best, highly unprofessional, and at worst, verbally abusive.

Second, if you are witnessing abuse, report it through SafeSport. That’s pretty much the only way to enact change. You are not going to convince people to leave the program. You may consider leaving negative reviews to help warn the next person.

This is not a new problem in our sport. But just because it’s been happening since the beginning of time doesn’t make it okay. We can’t save everyone from it, but at least we can stop supporting those who operate this way.

[red_mares]

I hate to admit it, but the bitchy mean girls I went through school with did me a great service - they toughened me up. I’m not sure I would have made it through boot camp without their prior abuse.

The other thing is that young girls tend to cry, and often without any real good reason. I think my niece cried from the day she turned 4 until the day she turned 6. At 11, she’s a whole lot tougher.

The notion that nothing has to be hard has spawned a couple generations of kids that shrivel up when anyone speaks directly to them; it doesn’t even have to be harshly. If the kids at the OP’s barn learn to deal with a ‘mean’ instructor - good for them. It’s a life skill.
They are far ahead of their peers.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I agree with you. Reading this whole thread is incredibly depressing. I really thought attitudes had changed more.

There is a difference between shouting “sit back” to a kid who is about to fall off versus leaving a child in tears and screaming at her in an emotional outburst because she cantered on the wrong lead.

[red_mares]

We really don’t know that happened. The OP sounds a tiny bit oversensitive. We also know squat about the crying kid. Could well be that the only time the kid hears anything rough could be at the riding lesson.

Personally, I’m glad attitudes haven’t changed. Getting better at something is hard. Easy breeds mediocrity.

[Texarkana]

@red_mares

Personally, I’m glad attitudes haven’t changed. Getting better at something is hard. Easy breeds mediocrity.

Things can be hard and rigorous without belittling people. You can deliver constructive criticism in a productive manner.

If the OP feels strongly enough about it to post on a public forum, the trainer’s method of communication has room for improvement.

[OnAMission]

Sometimes the mean girls end up really wrecking a not-mean girl. Not a fan of the mean girl approach.

I can’t get behind a lot of negative yelling at a kid. I live next to our school and I can hear the coaches with the kids. I hear a lot of “GET THERE GET THERE” but then I hear a lot, more so, of “Yeah! GOOD JOB!”

I would not have kept my kid with a riding instructor that thought s/he was running a boot camp. Thinking it makes kids tough totally totally ignores the damage it can do to some kids. Horses are optional, surviving with your spirit intact is not.

[Horsesismypassion]

@red_mares

We really don’t know that happened. The OP sounds a tiny bit oversensitive. We also know squat about the crying kid.

I admit that I might be over sensitive, and also that as an observer, I don’t know the back ground. Just to be clear we are not talking of one observation of one kid, we are talking of more than one kid. A one off I could file under a bad day, more than one is a pattern.

[lorilu]

@Scribbler

ce (I doubt this lesson barn is USEF affiliated so SS is not in play),

It is very possible the trainer is a member of USEF.

[lorilu]

I am shocked anyone would condone this behavior. Yes, that’s what some of you are doing. Condoning it.

[Texarkana]

I think SafeSport can take some sort of action even if the trainer in question isn’t a member of any organization.

If you are coaching in a USEF/IOC discipline, you fall under their scope.

Also, crappy methods aren’t limited to non-USEF members. There are plenty of BNTs who are terribly abusive. I mean, you guys might have heard of this one guy, George Morris…

[Scribbler]

@Texarkana

I think SafeSport can take some sort of action even if the trainer in question isn’t a member of any organization.

If you are coaching in a USEF/IOC discipline, you fall under their scope.

Also, crappy methods aren’t limited to non-USEF members. There are plenty of BNTs who are terribly abusive. I mean, you guys might have heard of this one guy, George Morris…

No. Safe sport can only sanction by suspending or kicking out members of the national sports body. If they are really involved that’s a kiss of death to their competition programs

Ss has no jurisdiction and no leverage over a person who isn’t a USEF member

[Texarkana]

@Scribbler

@Texarkana

I think SafeSport can take some sort of action even if the trainer in question isn’t a member of any organization.

If you are coaching in a USEF/IOC discipline, you fall under their scope.

Also, crappy methods aren’t limited to non-USEF members. There are plenty of BNTs who are terribly abusive. I mean, you guys might have heard of this one guy, George Morris…

No. Safe sport can only sanction by suspending or kicking out members of the national sports body. If they are really involved that’s a kiss of death to their competition programs

Ss has no jurisdiction and no leverage over a person who isn’t a USEF member

So, my old neighbor is on the list… not a USEF member. Was a ASHA member back in the day, but certainly has not been active in decades. He is permanently ineligible from coaching and all USEF events.

[MsM]

I am not a fan of abusive actions being labelled as “tough” or “good for toughening the kids up” OTOH, I am not a fan of every correction being labelled as “too negative” or “yelling” or even “abusive”. Good instructors know the productive middle ground.

Too me, the line is crossed when the comments are personal and not helpful (“you are riding like a fat blob!”) Some instructors are more into yelling and but the instruction may be good. However, IME, those who yell a lot often are at a loss instructionally and end up endlessly saying “heels down!” to no good effect. Frustrating for everyone.

I have been “yelled at” by instructors. Most of the time it was when I did something we had corrected before and I was fully capable and knew what to do but ??? But there were instructors that refused to ride with as I saw them being more interested in being cleverly insulting and amusing onlookers than helping the rider. I also had one who started yelling “ride, ride, ride!” at me. I halted and told her she needed to tell me more specifically what to do and just yelling that didnt work for me. She did stop, but I didnt take many more lessons from her.

I would decide if I could be comfortable with this instructor and make progress (which you said you had). For the children, if I saw an incident that I thought was concerning, I would probably say something to the parent like “Wow, that was unnecessary and mean. I wouldnt stand for that!” At least then the parent has some input that it is not “business as usual” with all instructors. I wouldnt use the crying kids as a measure, as some can cry easily or bring in upset from outside the barn so be sure there is an objectionable action from the instructor. (Spoken as a retired teacher who had kids report that I “yelled at them” for the mildest correction!)

[Angela_Freda]

@red_mares

I hate to tell you this, but it takes a certain amount of unpleasantness in life to make a strong person. No one ever got tougher, mentally or physically, in an easy, stress free environment.

Yeah, no.
That’s a cop out.
That’s abuser language.

[Angela_Freda]

@red_mares

I hate to admit it, but the bitchy mean girls I went through school with did me a great service - they toughened me up. I’m not sure I would have made it through boot camp without their prior abuse.

The other thing is that young girls tend to cry, and often without any real good reason. I think my niece cried from the day she turned 4 until the day she turned 6. At 11, she’s a whole lot tougher.

The notion that nothing has to be hard has spawned a couple generations of kids that shrivel up when anyone speaks directly to them; it doesn’t even have to be harshly. If the kids at the OP’s barn learn to deal with a ‘mean’ instructor - good for them. It’s a life skill.
They are far ahead of their peers.

So much to unpack…

This : nothing has to be hard , is not the opposite of yelling screaming and belittling.

a couple generations of kids that shrivel up when anyone speaks directly to them; it doesn’t even have to be harshly.
Puhleez. Put the broad brush down and back away from the can of hyperbole

The other thing is that young girls tend to cry, and often without any real good reason
Do you have a degree or professional experience with kids, child development, psychology or any related fields?

[pluvinel]

@Angela_Freda

@red_mares

I hate to tell you this, but it takes a certain amount of unpleasantness in life to make a strong person. No one ever got tougher, mentally or physically, in an easy, stress free environment.

Yeah, no.
That’s a cop out.
That’s abuser language.

Abuser? Nope. I was taken to a Title 9 Sexual Harassment charge because I…wait for it…gave a university level senior engineering student, a B.

The grade was a gift. The woman was lazy and had the intellectual curiosity of a gnat.

She had tried to complain to the chair of the department. He saw thru her. Then she went to the University’s Title 9 coordinator. I had to sit thru several interviews when the committee decided there was no “sexual harassment” going on and the student was just unhappy with her grade.