It may or may not make the levels more accessible other than what is probably a small number of people who chose not to show rather than flop around. Since Natalie Lamping did not indicate an intention, who knows? But IMO more accessible is not really a bad thing.
Re judging its not just the posting vs. sitting. Its also the quality of the trot- both the extension and overall, the transitions in and out, etc. So I dont think its so simple as thinking - 1 pt or whatever the second the posting occurs.
Personally I prefer to sit. Can’t wait to get past the warm up part of my ride where I do post. But my creaky self has really been struggling with working on extensions…
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Atlatl, You are incorrect. The applicable rule is DR104.5, which states that all trot work is to be performed sitting, unless otherwise specified. The tests below Second Level specify that posting is allowed. There is no such specification from Second Level on up, freestyles included. If someone posts the trot at Second Level or above, they receive an error. If they are so informed by the judge and do it again, they get a second error. Do it again and elimination.
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Or humor? If it’s not fair to show against someone who posts the trot then it’s clearly not fair for me to show against someone’s horse in Pro training. Or a WB, or someone with a dressage saddle, or at schooling shows when they don’t separate kids and adults (if it’s 12 hands high and the rider has pigtails it doesn’t matter if I’m on Valegro, I’m not beating that).
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YESSSS! I’m sending in my proposal right now.
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Thanks for the reference to the actual rule.
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I get the argument about accessibility from the injury/pain POV - my back is fine for now, but fully expect to be among the group of people who would want to post to save their backs in the future.
However.
Over and over again, I have experienced “difficult to sit” horses become perfectly easy to sit when they are working properly over their backs and in self-carriage appropriate for the size of gait. So where is the line between “the pair is ready for the level, except for the difficulty in sitting the medium/extended trots”, and the pair is just not ready for the level? I would expect to sit from 3rd on up due to the emphasis on consistent uphill balance in the purpose statements of the tests. Though, the option to post without penalty if things go sideways during a test is always appreciated…
Posting or not posting meds/exts isn’t on its own specifically an issue I feel strongly about either way, I would just advocate that people think about these proposals in a way that fully accounts for what the movements in the tests at those levels are really trying to validate about the level/quality of training. This was the argument for posting at 1st level IIRC - the horses are young/green, so posting is supportive of that level of training. Since 3rd level asks that the horse maintain a consistent uphill balance and self-carriage, and self-carriage is what makes a trot “sittable”, I would argue that some expectation that the rider be able to sit the gait effectively be part of the demonstration in the test of the quality of the training.
I have enjoyed the discussion so far, but didn’t yet see anyone bring up what the purpose of the movements were at these levels. Maybe what we should really be doing is a broader reflection on the national tests in terms of training benchmarks for horse and rider pairs rather than just for the horse. From that POV, I would lean towards being in favor of allowing posting for mediums at 2nd, but expect to see the benchmark that the rider is able to harmoniously sit mediums at 3rd, maybe allow posting in the extendeds since they are new at that level? And then sit everything at 4th? A gradual progression of expectations for the rider that is also consistent with the expectations of the horse’s self-carriage makes sense to me.
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Judges for whom I was scribing have rung the bell ajd given errors for posting.
I’m all for allowing pisting. I have a horse who does better when I sit, now, so I don’t need the rule change personally.
My thoroughbred got explosive schooling in warmups and we were worried someone else would get hurt so chose against showing. However, it would have been a struggle for multiple levels. He has the type of very short back which transmits every movement in his body to the rider’s seat, and even my trainer didn’t sit extensions on him until he was pretty solidly around PSG engagement. By the time we stopped doing extensions because his hooves didn’t hold up to his power, they were super easy to ride - but that was on his development, not my improvement.
I also have friends who want to compete and hit a wall in dressage due to back injuries, so switched to disciplines where they could post. Riders need to be judged fairly, and if they can’t ride the level should be scored accordingly. Posting or not doesn’t change whether they are ready for the level. However, riders who can ride well enough with some sort of physical issue may be incapable of even attempting to sit extensions. Or horses like my TB with super short backs or just tension that day may be better off with posting. I believe riders who can’t ride the test and are being carted around should be scored accordingly, but I also believe we should open up for more riders who CAN ride to have the chance. Let the judging take its place in telling poor riders that they need to improve.
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A rider who has a significant back problem or other physical issue and is willing to go to the trouble to get it medically documented can get a dispensation that can include rising the trot at levels not normally allowed as well as equipment modifications, etc. Really they are fairly generous in granting dispensations so that more people can participate. You don’t have to compete in just para classes, you can use your dispensation at any show any level. I know several people with dispensations who ride mostly in open classes as opposed to para classes. This is the route that I think this should go, and it is already available.
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I believe it WAS in the rules but unfortunately no longer have my old rulebooks so I can’t verify that for certain. Does anyone else have a rulebook from about 20 years ago? I also wonder whether any of the European countries allow posting in their highest level national tests? I personally believe we have gone far enough in making various levels easier.
That is not true.
I asked for a medical dispensation specifically to be able to rise at the trot and had medical records as well as a letter from my Orthopedic surgeon and I was denied. They allow me to use a gel pad.
Stupid imo and I’m all for the rule change and keep me in with the people sitting.
It’s a game, it’s supposed to be fun. For the rider and the horses.
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It’s a competition. Sometimes it’s fun for the riders but I’d bet money that given a choice all the horses would opt out.
I’m curious why some who want to post also don’t want to be in a different division?
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Why does there need to be a different division? It’s the same test, just some will post and some won’t.
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Well, I guess if you don’t think that allowing posting changes the criteria for med and ext trot movements it’s the same test. I just think that it does change the criteria so it’s not, IMO, the same test. YMMV
ETA: And by criteria, I mean the rider’s ability to sit med and ext trot.
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I’m going to be a little rude here but…
So the person who is sitting the trot but looks like a sack of potatoes with Tourette’s syndrome should score higher than a rider executing the gait smoothly and correctly but posting? Are you all really saying that sitting, regardless of how bad the overall picture is, is better than posting? I’m having a little trouble with that. The mere fact that someone is sitting is a higher score than posting?
I think some consideration of all the possibilities is needed here.
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I don’t see why sitting or posting changes the criteria for the movement. I realize that sitting is in the directives, but where is it in the criteria for the movement itself?
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And where do you think the judge assesses the specifics for the rider score? It’s throughout the entire test.
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I have the rulebooks back to 2007 on my computer(they are also available on the USEF web site), and checked that before posting that it wasn’t in the rules.
I have paper copies of the 1991 rulebook and ( I think) the 1995 rulebook at home. I am currently out of town, but I will check them on Wednesday, and report on what I find.
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The rider score isn’t formulated based off the rider’s ability to sit like Charlotte Dujardin in those two single movements. This rule change isn’t going to allow terrible riders to suddenly score in the 80s.
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This doesn’t have a lot to do with the discussion, but: in Canada, similar to US, trot work must be done sitting beginning at second level. BUT weirdly, the freestyle tests thru 4th level say trot work can be sitting or rising. Very strange, maybe they think it will be easier for riders to keep to their music?
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For me the bottom line is that the horse’s welfare should come first. Riders who can not for what ever reason sit the medium trot and/or trot extensions correctly should be allowed to post. Riders who can sit correctly would also have the option to post if their horse required it for the horse’s well being at that moment. Besides, correct posting technique is not always a given but at least the horse’s body is less affected by doing it incorrectly.
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