Allowing posting at med and ext trot through Fourth

[4horses]

My one mare has a very bouncy trot. I think posting is a good idea because it is downright painful to try and sit that. Maybe when I was 18, I could sit that comfortably. I have a friend that is having back pain and she wouldn’t be able to sit an extended trot without taking a week or two to recover (and going to physical therapy).

Horses may also have a preference as to whether the rider sits or posts. I always think the horses comfort should be taken into consideration and if the horse has a preference, we should consider that.

[atlatl]

If you want to debate may I suggest responding to what people actually post.

Eta: do you judge or have you gone thru the L program? How do you think the rider’s score is determined?

[enjoytheride]

I did respond to what you posted. I see no reason to make a separate division. There is nothing in the rider’s score that states “quality of rider’s sitting trot” There is nothing that a judge can’t fairly score both the rider who posts and the rider who sits.

On 4th level test one it says the following:

RIDER’S POSITION AND SEAT (Alignment; posture; stability; weight placement;
following mechanics of the gaits)

RIDER’S CORRECT AND EFFECTIVE USE OF AIDS
(Clarity; subtlety; independence; accuracy of test)

A rider with a poor seat is going to score lower anyway, regardless of if they post 2 movements or not.

[atlatl]

@enjoytheride

I did respond to what you posted. I see no reason to make a separate division. There is nothing in the rider’s score that states “quality of rider’s sitting trot” There is nothing that a judge can’t fairly score both the rider who posts and the rider who sits.

On 4th level test one it says the following:

RIDER’S POSITION AND SEAT (Alignment; posture; stability; weight placement;
following mechanics of the gaits)

RIDER’S CORRECT AND EFFECTIVE USE OF AIDS
(Clarity; subtlety; independence; accuracy of test)

A rider with a poor seat is going to score lower anyway, regardless of if they post 2 movements or not.

See above.

What say we agree to disagree? We are clearly coming at this from very different perspectives.

[outerbanks77]

@Gardenhorse

I don’t see why sitting or posting changes the criteria for the movement. I realize that sitting is in the directives, but where is it in the criteria for the movement itself?

It doesn’t. The directive for medium trot at 2-3 is: “moderate lengthening of frame and stride with
engagement, elasticity, suspension, straightness and uphill balance.”

Now sitting well can probably produce more engagement and uphill balance than posting, but posting well can probably produce better engagement, elasticity and suspension than sitting poorly and/or having to damp down the trot to stay with the movement.

[enjoytheride]

THANK YOU! There is nothing in the criteria or in the rider section that indicates posting or sitting would be scored so different it needs a different division. Even the above highlighted stability and following mechanics of the gait are not interpreted as either sitting or posting.

We didn’t separate out the other levels when we offered the option to sit or post so there’s no reason to do it if this passes.

[anon55755751]

A different division might be silly (though I think eventing divisions horse/rider/open would be better than just aa/open), but there is a difference to the extent that sitting is a demonstration of the rider’s ability to use effective aids to create and maintain enough self-carriage in the bigger trot gaits that they remain “sittable”. Scoring either equally tacitly implies we do not care about that particular metric for assessment. Maybe there are good reasons not to care, but I don’t think there has been a particularly robust discussion of pros/cons in this thread from the POV of horse training.

The rider is scored on their ability to effectively showcase the quality of training - this is roughly what “effectiveness of the aids” means in the collectives. All else equal, sitting (well) should outscore posting at some point (3rd-4th if not 2nd) because it is a demonstration of a greater degree of effect in creating consistent self-carriage as the gaits are pushed to max ext. Sure, it is harder on some horses than others, but they all have strengths and weaknesses. Fact of life.

It is not just the directive for the movement that matters. The purpose of the test and collectives also reflect expectations for the movements.

[Janet]

@Janet

I have paper copies of the 1991 rulebook and ( I think) the 1995 rulebook at home. I am currently out of town, but I will check them on Wednesday, and report on what I find.

In the 90-91, and 94-95 rulebooks (new rulebooks were only printed every 2 years then) it only says (under the rule describing the trot) “All trot work is executed sitting unless otherwise indicated in the test concerned”, just as it says now.

Now, as then if you want to allow posting in the higher level tests, you need to petition the test-writers, not make a rule change, because there is no relevant rule TO change.

Modern dressage riders might be interested to know that a Dr. Bristol bit was EXPLICITLY permitted in the 91-95 rule books, and also up until 2011. It was only in 2012 (for reasons I have never understood) that the rule-makers decided to ban the Dr. Bristol in Dressage.

[Mondo]

Donning my flame suit before I jump in here, as I suspect my opinion will not be popular. Natalie Lamping is a long time, respected judge. (I happen to dislike her for an incident when I was scribing for her many years ago, but that doesn’t apply to this discussion.) I think if she would like to see this rule change for the benefit of the horse, it makes sense to a degree. If she wants to see the rule change so that riders can show at higher levels - hard no from me. If you can’t sit your horse’s medium or extended trot, then you shouldn’t be showing beyond 1st level. You clearly do not have an educated seat. If, as some have suggested, your formerly great seat has gone downhill due to age and physical issues, I think you might want to be less hard on yourself and your horse and maybe show at lower levels. Or maybe campaign for a seniors division where posting is permitted. If there are professionals out there who can’t post their horse’s trot at medium or extended, maybe they don’t ride as well as they think they do.

@anon55755751

there is a difference to the extent that sitting is a demonstration of the rider’s ability to use effective aids to create and maintain enough self-carriage in the bigger trot gaits that they remain “sittable”. Scoring either equally tacitly implies we do not care about that particular metric for assessment. Maybe there are good reasons not to care, but I don’t think there has been a particularly robust discussion of pros/cons in this thread from the POV of horse training.

The rider is scored on their ability to effectively showcase the quality of training -

Yes, strangewings, that’s my thinking as well. I love teaching the sitting trot and can’t think of any students over the years who didn’t eventually get it. I know sometimes the horses these days are HUGE movers, but if the horse is through and on the aids, that should make the extended gaits easier to sit, not harder. OK. Flame away. This is just MHO, YMMV.

[paw]

@Mondo

If you can’t sit your horse’s medium or extended trot, then you shouldn’t be showing beyond 1st level. You clearly do not have an educated seat. If, as some have suggested, your formerly great seat has gone downhill due to age and physical issues, I think you might want to be less hard on yourself and your horse and maybe show at lower levels. Or maybe campaign for a seniors division where posting is permitted

Not all who have back/spine issues are older, and not all who are unable to sit the extended gaits have an uneducated seat. Enjoy your ability to sit while you can.

[Horsecrazy3]

Even some North American professional riders do not have a correct and following seat when doing extensions. The marks they receive compared to European riders say so. Also it’s obvious when watching the tests.

You need a strong foundation of non-FEI riders to keep the sport healthy. There is a reason why the number of riders twindles as you get past second level and the first level riders get discouraged and leave for another sport - working equitation and western dressage for example. Those riders who want to ride at the FEI level will try to develop their seat. Most lower level riders do not have that aspiration and want to keep themselves and their horses free from pain.

[Mondo]

@paw

Not all who have back/spine issues are older, and not all who are unable to sit the extended gaits have an uneducated seat. Enjoy your ability to sit while you can.

Then isn’t that what para dressage is for? And my ability to sit hasn’t diminished so far and I’m 65.

[enjoytheride]

Not all riders who might want to post the med and ext trot are para riders

[Mondo]

@enjoytheride

Not all riders who might want to post the med and ext trot are para riders

True. Which is kind of my point.

[fordtraktor]

I’m 42 and can sit the trot just fine from an equitation perspective. Then I can barely walk for days because I have bulging discs that create severe nerve pain.

I have to be very careful about how much I sit the trot. I do my warmup posting the whole time so I can get through my test at shows, and don’t do more than one test a day. Then use a lot of ice and go see my chiro when I get home.

I don’t need to stay at First Level the rest of my life! Posting the mediums wouldn’t eliminate my issues, but it would help.

If you are in the privileged position of still having a good back after riding horses for decades, you are lucky…not necessarily better at dressage than us cripples!

Of course, my horse’s back is fine so it wouldn’t really help him, because I CAN sit well. I just suffer for it.

It’s a shame they don’t give dispensations more readily. I should easily qualify based on my medical history, but I’ve been told it is a waste of time and won’t be granted. I am still very sore from my show last week.

[enjoytheride]

I clearly don’t follow. Your point was that riders with physical issues can qualify for Para dressage. My point is that many riders don’t in fact qualify or might not even want to try to qualify. Other riders have mentioned accommodations and getting denied.

[libgrrl]

Isn’t this why Robert Dover quit so early? He has/had back issues?

[Feathered_Feet]

I’m surprised no one has commented that some horses are also just really hard to sit. And I’m not talking about big moving warmbloods - I love big, I can sit big, big is super fun to ride. I’m talking about horses with a jackhammer trot. I know folks will say “once they are truly over their backs it’s easier” and that’s 1000% true, but that doesn’t always fix the issue that their trots suck. So what do those owners do - make their otherwise capable horses and themselves suffer through sitting because they were cursed with a poor trot? Or force them to stay at first level, risking them leaving the sport because let’s face it - first level gets boring really quickly when you’re ready for more.

For those that can’t empathize - I didn’t really understand what a jackhammer trot was either, until I worked at a sales barn for several years. We didn’t get too many horses that fit that description, but boy did you know it when you found one. Until you’ve ridden one, I suggest you don’t know what I’m talking about (lucky you!).

I’m in Natalie Lamping’s camp - if it’s better for the horse, and it doesn’t hurt the sport, then do what’s best for the horse’s welfare. Bonus - it helps amateurs stay in the game and help support this dying sport. More competitors keeps shows cheaper for me!

Ultimately, I’m a capable rider with a horse with a great trot, and I don’t feel at all threatened by letting folks post medium and extended trots through 4th. (Partly because most pairs who can’t sit them will top out at 2nd or 3rd, anyway, since generally the ability to sit medium/extended trot is related to a wide variety of other skills that permeate all other facets of training and riding.)

[enjoytheride]

@Feathered_Feet

Ultimately, I’m a capable rider with a horse with a great trot, and I don’t feel at all threatened by letting folks post medium and extended trots through 4th. (Partly because most pairs who can’t sit them will top out at 2nd or 3rd, anyway, since generally the ability to sit medium/extended trot is related to a wide variety of other skills that permeate all other facets of training and riding.)

I think this is an excellent point. If the ability to sit the trot is related to other skills that the rider is lacking they are not likely to even get to a level where sitting or posting the medium and extended gaits is an issue or if they do then their scores will lack in other ways. No reason to relegate them to Para riding or a separate division.

The notion that all these riders with poor sitting trots are suddenly going to be stealing ribbons away from the riders that have been sitting the trot is a a non issue.

[atlatl]

I find it interesting that some assume those that believe posting the trot decreases the level of difficulty and does not demonstrate the same quality of riding as being able to sit a med or ext trot are worried about ribbons at all.

Kind of reinforces my thought that some of those wanting to post at higher levels are not as concerned with their horse’s wellbeing as they as with moving up the levels. Just an observation.