Allowing posting at med and ext trot through Fourth

[pluvinel]

@fermecinqsens

I can’t help but think that if the horses weren’t bred to have such gigantic movement, it wouldn’t even be a topic….

Exactly. Somewhere along the line the “bling” gaits started to be rewarded.

This change in judging slowly crept in as the equestrian competitions morphed from a test of the capabilities of what was essentially a “work horse”… a cavalry mount that had to take.a soldier to war…to a “poodle show” presenting figures in a 20x60m arena.

It is just the same as what has happened to dog breeds. As judges started to reward big shoulders and small hips in bulldogs, breeders produced animals that could not give birth thru the vaginal canal. Same thing in German Shepherds and hip displasia.

[sascha]

@fermecinqsens

I can’t help but think that if the horses weren’t bred to have such gigantic movement, it wouldn’t even be a topic….

?? I don’t understand this comment.

Does it mean that paddling is caused by gigantic movement or exaggerated by gigantic movement or ??

[Janet]

@sascha

?? I don’t understand this comment.

Does it mean that paddling is caused by gigantic movement or exaggerated by gigantic movement or ??

Not the person you are quoting, but this is how I understand her comment.

Warmblood breeders, the ones who focus on the dressage market, have worked on breeding horses with bigger and more dramatic gaits, particularly medium and extended trot. But those “bigger and more dramatic” trots are the ones that are harder for the non-elite riders to sit properly.

No one but you has mentioned “paddling”

[enjoytheride]

I don’t understand your comment. Paddling is a common breed trait in Iberian horses but nobody has mentioned it here.

[sascha]

OMG! I totally thought this was the other thread Clearly under-caffeinated when I read it earlier this morning! Thanks for this!

[sascha]

Under caffeination led me to believe the comment I quoted was on the paddling thread. Sorry for the confusion!

[alibi_18]

Let me turn the question around and ask if riders that can effectively sit the trot should score higher than those that can’t for whatever reason?

Not necessarily.

What is important is what is going on underneath the seat; how is the horse moving.

If the person is posting the trot AND demonstrating a very correct extended; why would this ride score lower?

I’m reminded of a Lilo Fore answer to a question at a CDS symposium about horses in TL classes carrying themselves in more engaged frames where the person asking suggested they should not get extra credit; Lilo’s answer was “Well, I’m sure not going to penalize them.”

Those are two different things; one is the rider’s skill, the other is the horse’s way of going.

Should someone be penalized for having their horse work smoother underneath them? How much should it mattered of how they do it?

And I’m pretty sure I spoke to Lilo about this, because this demand to choose have been around for quite some time now, and if I remember correctly, I believe she was in favor of riders riding however best they can.

[pluvinel]

@enjoytheride

I don’t understand your comment. Paddling is a common breed trait in Iberian horses but nobody has mentioned it here.

I think you have the wrong thread.

[sascha]

@sascha

Under caffeination led me to believe the comment I quoted was on the paddling thread. Sorry for the confusion!

@pluvinel

I think you have the wrong thread.

I think you failed to read a couple more posts

I’m better after coffee, thanks!

[atlatl]

@alibi_18

Let me turn the question around and ask if riders that can effectively sit the trot should score higher than those that can’t for whatever reason?

Not necessarily.

What is important is what is going on underneath the seat; how is the horse moving.

If the person is posting the trot AND demonstrating a very correct extended; why would this ride score lower?

For that movement, if the med or extended trot is equally as good, then they should score the same. What about the rider score? Do you think that someone correctly sitting the med and ext trots is demonstrating a higher level of difficulty?

I’m reminded of a Lilo Fore answer to a question at a CDS symposium about horses in TL classes carrying themselves in more engaged frames where the person asking suggested they should not get extra credit; Lilo’s answer was “Well, I’m sure not going to penalize them.”

Those are two different things; one is the rider’s skill, the other is the horse’s way of going.

Not necessarily, it could be a better rider’s skill helping the horse go better.

Should someone be penalized for having their horse work smoother underneath them? How much should it mattered of how they do it?

And I’m pretty sure I spoke to Lilo about this, because this demand to choose have been around for quite some time now, and if I remember correctly, I believe she was in favor of riders riding however best they can.

If you dig through the thread, you may see that my perspective is that the current tests intend to develop both the horse and rider so I believe the expectations for both increases up the levels. Reading through the responses on this thread and in other places as well as various articles on this topic a common theme is that people don’t want to stay at TL and 1st level and the requirement to sit the trot is what’s holding some of them back. Others are going ahead and pounding their horses’ backs so some judges would prefer letting people post instead of having to see that happen. That’s not intended to be judgmental, just a dispassionate observation.

One could extrapolate to the point where sitting any trot is not required at all. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, just that it is.

[pluvinel]

@sascha

I think you failed to read a couple more posts

I’m better after coffee, thanks!

I did…and I am. I usually reply when I read a post…the read on and realize it has alrady been addressed.

And yes…I understand coffee.

[anon55755751]

@alibi_18

What is important is what is going on underneath the seat; how is the horse moving.

If the person is posting the trot AND demonstrating a very correct extended; why would this ride score lower?

My questions about this point have been: What is it about the training of the horse that sitting is expected to demonstrate? Why was sitting introduced in the tests to begin with, as allowing posting would presumably remove that metric from the test? Is there a difference when the rider is more experienced than the horse and training the horse vs. the horse is a schoolmaster trained beyond the level of the rider?

Any idea of Janet Foy’s opinion? She has made comments in the past about not wanting national tests judged differently from international. That was about emphasis on gaits i think, but Lamping made comments separating “international track” from the rest of us when arguing for this change so i am wondering if this is a large scale pov difference between the two of them?

@atlatl in the coth article , Natalie Lamping indeed states that her end goal is to make all sitting trot optional.

[beaujolais]

Excellent! I have a back that can no longer sitting trot. I have been hoping for a very long time for this. The sitting requirement shuts some riders out or causes those who still proceed unnecessary pain and, perhaps, further injury. Bad discs are truly miserable.

[lorilu]

@Mondo

Yes, strangewings, that’s my thinking as well. I love teaching the sitting trot and can’t think of any students over the years who didn’t eventually get it.

Wow. No other trainer I know can make this statement. You must really be super at training riders /s

[Mondo]

@lorilu

Wow. No other trainer I know can make this statement. You must really be super at training riders /s

My goodness but that is snarky. I said “I can’t think of any…” Doesn’t mean there weren’t a few. Doesn’t mean any that were really great at sitting trot ever got to FEI levels. Why don’t you put your snark away and opine on the rest of the thread instead, OK?

[lorilu]

I believe my opinion is up at the beginning of this thread. I fully support the idea for the benefit of the horse. I think posting mediums and extended trots isn’t as easy as some seem to think it is. Some horses have naturally “sittable” trots even at lower levels. Some, especially those with upright gaits (knee action) and shorter backs present more of a challenge.
I have been away from CoH for a few weeks for various reasons.
I stand by what I said.
Perhaps the ones that didn’t learn just moved away from dressage.

[Guyot]

I would be thrilled for this. I have 3 students currently with very bad backs. Physical bony issues and disc issues and all can sit the trot and even the medium and extended gaits… however, there is a personal cost to their bodies; that will cause them to not be able to ride… their injuries WILL be limiting eventually.

One client has given up sailing and water skiing, and almost all other physical activity to keep riding every other day… she’s at 4th level now and hoping to do the PSG next year, but she can’t ride daily or she’s in so much pain. If she could post these bigger movements she probably could continue to ride in the sport many many more years. Do I think she’s getting an advantage, no… do I think keeping a fantastic member of the dressage community engaged and excited is important, YES!

Just because someone can sit doesn’t mean they should. This goes both ways. Just like just because I can sit a horses bigger gaits but that horse prefers someone to post; he should have posting. I’ve known some that don’t like me to post, even the stretchy trot (although I think that is mostly because they don’t like to see the rider moving a lot up there vs being still, either way those individual horses preferred me to sit all the time)

I’d be fine with a mixture of posting or sitting or to see something along the lines of all sitting or all posting for the test. Meaning pick one and stick with it etc. as personally I find the downward transition off the bigger gaits harder to do posting. Mixing it all up I think does make it slightly easier but let’s be real… this is all hard.

Anyone saying posting is easier… try posting passage and piaffe… and the transition between the two talk about freaking HARD!

[Mondo]

@lorilu

I stand by what I said.

As do I. Had you bothered to read any further, you would have seen that I did a complete 180 on my opinion about this subject.

[atlatl]

@Guyot

Anyone saying posting is easier… try posting passage and piaffe… and the transition between the two talk about freaking HARD!

We’re talking about posting at med and ext trot though

[Guyot]

Yes I Know, but posting can be more difficult then sitting depending because you have less access to the hind leg… and sarcasm much?