Allowing posting at med and ext trot through Fourth

[pluvinel]

@sascha

Recently I helped a friend rehab a horse with a similar trot. She is a gorgeous floating mover who covers a ton of ground in her working trot. It was murder posting her trot because there was nothing to post. Far easier to just sit there.

It used to be that these horses were prized. After WWII, when the mechanized world took over for animals (horses) doing work in the farm and for transportation, the German (and northern European breeders) repurposed their horses for the civilian riding market. Very successfully.

In the past, there were “riding horses” and “work horses.” Some were "all-purpose horses…eg., Bessie would work the fields during the week hitched to the plow, take Farmer Johann to do errands under saddle, then get hitched to the cart to take the family to church on Sunday.

These horses were repurposed as riding horses by adding refining blood. They succeeded in the competition arena and the rest is history.

Heck, competition is currently (as we speak) changing the Lusitano breed. Breeders are taking what was a “work horse” used to work cattle and are now repurposing them for dressage competition. I cannot believe the number of Portuguese ads touting 17hh Lusitanos. Two years ago I spoke with the head of APSL, and he told me my old stallion (entered into APSL stud book 20 years ago) would not have been approved into the registry today. So selection in breed stock for what wins competitions (and thus increases prices) is a real “thing,”

I don’t have time to do a lot of research, but I have a bookshelf of old books… As I recall from my reading, since the US didn’t have a native “dressage” tradition, so after WWII, US decision makers looked to Europe to define the criteria to be used in dressage tests. We had a number of prominent ex-cavalry immigrants that helped get the US competitive in the world stage. Here is where partiality for one’s country’s native breeds subtly infused the judging criteria. This is where the preference “bling gaits” starts to slowly creep in. It was minor in the 1950-1970’s. But starting about 1980’s we see a start of the importation of European-bred horses into the US.

There was lots of discussion as to why not include the “high school” (airs above the ground) in dressage tests. The dressage tests as we see today were developed and morphed from what professional soldiers were expected to do with their horses. This is what is called “the campaign school.” Eventing used to be called “the military competition.” Civilians (and women) were only allowed to ride in Olympic competition starting in 1952.

[enjoytheride]

I rode one for a friend several times. It was easier to sit as there wasn’t anything to push you out of the saddle. I looked like I had a fabulous sitting trot.

For current horses my arab is murder to sit because he chucks you out of the saddle. My mustang is in between. If it’s hard to post it’s because she’s being a lazy cow then it gets hard to sit because she’s being ridiculous, then it’s lovely to sit because the spot is right there.

[atlatl]

@sascha

… It does not hold true for many horses and it does no favour to the sport to stomp your foot and say “but I can do it so everybody should have to do it.”

Nobody, including myself, has said such a thing so I’ve no idea whom you quote.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[Bonnie2]

Decreases the level of difficulty? It seems one of the main arguments against is that the quality of the gait will suffer if not supported by sitting. In most of dressage it is the horse being judged. Let the competitor present their horse to its best and let the judge score what they see.

[atlatl]

@Bonnie2

Decreases the level of difficulty?

Yes, decreases the level of difficulty. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

It seems one of the main arguments against is that the quality of the gait will suffer if not supported by sitting.

Not my argument. Although I have been thinking about this aspect and when people “push” while posting correctly.

In most of dressage it is the horse being judged. Let the competitor present their horse to its best and let the judge score what they see.

And the rider influences how the horse goes. This really isn’t rocket science. It all comes down to, IMO, what the purpose is of the national tests and how much, if at all, the intent is to also develop the rider up the levels.

[Bonnie2]

I saw this thread when it was new but didn’t read it, thinking ‘never happening’. Just read the article posted on COTH then the thread. What hunters have done is create a place for riders of all abilities to socialize and recreate. To have goals and achieve them. To support and provide income to the professionals in the industry. It’s not all roses but the industry is thriving. Middle aged women are the current financial base of the show industry. Some have always ridden, some are re-riders or from other horse sports, some are adult beginners. Many are bored with the lowest levels and would like to play at the middle level. While theoretically riders can post and take their chances, most would be too embarrassed. As long as judges continue to judge the horse by the same criteria, I see no injury to “Dressage” as an art or a sport. And maybe a few more happy, paying customers.

[Bonnie2]

Ah, this is where we look at it differently. I look at a dressage test as primarily testing the development the horse (which is of course directly related to its riders). I suppose this is what USDF needs to decide - what exactly is it that is being tested.

[enjoytheride]

@atlatl

Nobody, including myself, has said such a thing so I’ve no idea whom you quote.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Previous posters want it to be in an entirely separate division. Seems like people do feel that way.

[anon55755751]

A portion of the HJ and dressage show model is buying or getting pro training of the horse that is beyond the current level of the rider. In these cases, the dressage test is scored more on how well the rider can exhibit the horse than fundamentally on the development of the horse because the horse could be competing successfully at 4th level with one rider and at 1st level with another. So it is not really true IMO that we are testing the development of the horse. If that is what we WANT dressage to be, I think the HJ model increases the influence of pro training, riding, and prep. It is more accessible, but is it the same sport?

An alternative might be to set up joint shows at large venues so h/j can dabble in the dressage ring and vice versa the same weekend or something like that, which encourages people to cross over and find value in dressage as “good for” training generally

[Knubbsy]

@anon55755751

An alternative might be to set up joint shows at large venues so h/j can dabble in the dressage ring and vice versa the same weekend or something like that, which encourages people to cross over and find value in dressage as “good for” training generally

That can more or less happen at Tryon now, right? That was one of the attractive thoughts about my barn schlepping multiple trailers down there, both the h/j and the dressage folks would be showing in the same venue without needing to split up. But I imagine the venues that can do that are very rare and may limit how many classes of each you can offer (In Region 1, unless you run one ring it’s Tryon and maybe VHC, and who else? Maybe Morven if you’re okay with setting up temp stabling because dressage shows alone have filled those).

[Bogey2]

@atlatl

A couple of thoughts. I suspect the “couch” to which you refer was likely jogging and not trotting in a dressage sense.

wow…that’s way off base LOL. I own a couch and trust me he’s trotting in a dressage sense. The only time I see people jogging in a dressage tests is because they won’t let go with their ass and have no following seat.

[IPEsq]

There is a rule against being entered in 2 rated shows at the same time. You can do rated dressage and then an unrecognized show the same weekend but not on the same day. (I show both dressage and HJ and occasionally share a venue in my area).

[Cowgirl]

Do you mean a rule against entering the same horse or the same rider? The reason I ask is that I do know a rider who has a gp dressage horse that she shows, but also a string of h/j horses that she shows and sometimes shows both shows at the same venue, but not on the same horse.

[enjoytheride]

What rule is this?

[yaya]

@enjoytheride

What rule is this?

DR119.2

It applies to horses.

(Can’t seem to copy the wording on my iPad)

[yaya]

DR119.2 Horses may compete in no more than one Licensed Competition on the same day and are prohibited from competing in any non-licensed competition(s) held on the same day(s) as they compete in a Licensed Dressage Competition. Horses competing in Open dressage divisions or classes, which must be offered prior to any other classes, at a Regular or Local Competition are not permitted to participate or compete in other divisions or classes on the same day(s) and are subject to all DR Chapter rules from the time of their arrival.

[DLee1]

Exact same for me.

[Mander]

There are occasionally dressage and H/J shows running simultaneously at Colorado Horse Park and I’ve always thought it would be nice for people to cross enter but I guess I now know why they don’t. I get why the rule exists, but it’s a shame - it would be so fun to get some community crossover going on IMO.

[IPEsq]

I did a CHJA show on a Saturday and a USDF show on Sunday there on my young horse. I had a chat with the TD about it and I think we were fine under the rule. It helps some that the Licensed USDF competitions are usually organized as one day things (so people can get scores from 2 “shows” on the same weekend). I mean, not that my horse was going for scores or points as he did pile of poles hunters and melted down before making it down center line in his first test (did make it through test 2 with much drama), as it was his first ever show.

I’m going there next weekend and will be entered as a non-showing entry for dressage and will probably do the same for the HJ show just to get him in as many rings as possible again. He did fine with one day shows trailering in since the first meltdown, but we haven’t done another overnight, and so we are just going to without competing, also because the baby classes for the HJ show go late on Sunday which doesn’t interest me.

[fermecinqsens]

I can’t help but think that if the horses weren’t bred to have such gigantic movement, it wouldn’t even be a topic….