Saw this thread on another forum and wondered what you guys thought. I figured it might fit better here than off course since it refers to trail riding. http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/allowing-your-horse-to-say-no-542641.html
I do now. I didn’t listen to her one time and made her go through what I thought was a shallow puddle. It was mud up to her croup. We were in the middle of the woods, just the two of us; there was no one nearby to help even if I had been in any frame of mind to think of it. She fought her way out eventually (I was able to get off as soon as I realized she was stuck), but then just lay down flat for probably 10 minutes to recover. I thought I had killed her. Nothing is worth going through anything like that again.
I think this is where knowing your horse comes in? Or at least knowing how to read horse body language? Usually horses have one sort of look if they are like “yeah, I think there is a bear over there going to eat us, not going” vs “there might be a bear and I am being a ninny” vs “eff you, I don’t wanna.”
If I was on a horse that was usually pretty good about things (I don’t mind a bit looky like “what the heck is that?” as long as it is just wanting a good look) who suddenly went Nope, Not Happening, Not Gonna Do It then I would listen to the horse - either there is a problem you can’t identify on the trail, or there is a problem like something sore you are missing on the horse. Either way, that isn’t a thing to get into a fight about.
(I think it is reasonable to expect a certain level of manners, though. Stopping would be one thing. Trying to rear up or buck or what have you would be another. You don’t get to totally forget your manners because we have a difference if opinion.)
When my guy slammed on the brakes, and snorted on a trail that we’d done often. I agreed and went another way, and then realized the crows were following , very noisily, something, from the safety of their tree tops.
Oh, to have had a crow’s eye view.
Depends. I agree you have to know your horse
There is a fine line to not wanting a dead head for a trail horse, that will walk off of a cliff, if you ask him to, and one that second guesses you all the time
For instance, we ride some trails where there are both mud holes ans even bogs. I have been through them , maybe on another horse, etc, thus know there is a bottom, but the horse I am riding might not. I thus expect him to trust my judgement and go through that mud hole, or river crossing, or whatever.
At the same time, I have ridden places I have never been, and at times have respected my horse’s judgement when he thinks something is not safe, as I know my horses , being generally obedient, have a very good reason when they show some apprehension, like a grizzly bear up head on the trail!
I tend to listen. When I was a kid I used to take my horse everywhere. We were cantering through a backyard when he stopped dead. I couldn’t figure t iout till I noticed a clothes line strung across the yard. He could have easily gone under it but I would have not fared so well. Good horse!
Yes, but then again, have you ever sat on a river bank and your horse told you ‘no’ when you asked him to cross?
How about your horse spots a large rock at the edge of a steep trial, on the up hill side, which to him , looks like it might be a preditor, so decides to refuse yo go by it, stalls out and tried to whirl on that trail, possibly causing both of you to go over the edge?
There is no black and white yes or no to this question, as while a horse can save your ‘bacon’ at times, acting on his instincts, he can also cause a wreak, saying no to you in a difficult spot that really is not a place to argue!
While there are many examples where a person was saved a wreak, having his horse alert him to the situation, there are equal ,if not more examples of wreaks caused by horses that don’t trust their rider and continually argue where they will and will not ride, esp causing a battle at a place where that refusal can cause a wreak
I agree, that you have to know your horse on this one. I’ve ridden my Jet for ten years, and I generally trust her judgment (although she very much prefers to see another horse successfully cross a new bridge than to do it herself, lol). New guy is a stop and look sort, but if you let him have a moment to consider, he’ll move on willingly. I think if I forced him too quickly, we might have a fuss. He’s green, and so many things are new to him, but he is now accepting all kinds of wonky stuff just fine. I guess I’ll work around safe refusal (stop and look), but not a freak out. I have certainly pushed Jet and been wrong several times.
This thread reminds me of Balaam’s donkey. His donkey kept avoiding the road because the donkey saw the angel of the Lord waiting to kill Balaam. He kept beating his poor donkey for avoiding what he could not see!
All my horses get to say, “Hey!!! Look at that!!!” I look and then I get to say “aye” or “nay.”
G.
My first horse was an old grade pinto. I learned pretty quickly to listen to him. If he refused to go and I didn’t listen we invariably ended up in a belly-deep bog.
When my current horse, Dani, refuses to go I usually just keep her pointed the way I want to go and wait it out. Normally she’ll decide on her own that it’s okay to continue on.
I listen to my older horse. I have had her since she was a yearling and she is 20 this year. She is very well behaved and if she tells me no, I usually believe her and find another way to go.
It definitely depends on the horse, and if you know the horse well, you’ll likely be able to tell if it’s something legitimate, or if the horse is just being stubborn. I was on a horse once who normally didn’t spook, but as we were trotting along, she suddenly stopped, started puffing up and snorting, refused to budge, and I couldn’t see a thing. I didn’t try forcing her forward because I knew she wouldn’t be making it up. Turned out to be a whirlwind kicking up and heading our way. She sensed/saw it well before I did. Once it whirled past us we went on. could have been something much more horse-eating, but just goes to show she was much more aware than I was of possibly danger.
This is an interesting topic. Yes I have occasionally listened to my horse to find he avoid a small but very deep hole, or a bunch of deer nesting in tall grass or a coyote.
I was mad as heck. When he refused to go by cattle & left me.
I guess it “depends”
So far - in my 25+ years of riding (much of that out in the country side - a lot off trail) I have NEVER come across a mountain lion, a falling down bridge, or quicksand.
I HAVE however ridden a number of horses who refused to continue down the trail for various reasons. Usually because they were spoiled by their riders, and leaned if they threw enough of a fit, that they would get to turn around and head home. Its a good way to create a horse that rears, or backs off trails, or does other dangerous behavior.
So my job was always to MAKE THEM GO, and 99% of the time, once they realized that I wasn’t going to get scared by their crap, and was going to make them keep going - well the behavior stopped.
I am careful about what I ask them to do - I never want to betray their trust by putting them in danger. But so far, knock on wood, I have never had a horse alert to a danger that I wasn’t aware of.
Well Mum didn’t listen to Tommy when he told her not to turn on a track. After hours going the wrong way and not listening to him they finally gave him his head.
Sick of being told he couldn’t go the way he wanted, he brought then home over hill and dale and off tne tracks.
I usually listen to my Arab to an extent. If he balks, I’ll urge him to go anyway. If he is really truly insistent about not going, there’s usually a reason.
My friend’s horse (my ex used to own and I rode a lot) is one to be trusted 100% on a trail. If he says no go, its best to listen. Otherwise you find out the bridge is out two miles down the trail and you’ll have to backtrack. Or there’s tangled up fencing in the tall grass he and the others will get tangled up in. Or… Well, you get the point. If he says no, its definitely best to listen and go the way he wants to go instead. He’s also very good at getting us unlost…
I’m in the “depends” category. W is really smart and always has his self preservation in the front of his horsey mind. And if I’m on his back, he’ll save my skin too. He would NOT pass a new mare on the hunt field (unusual for him, and annoying to me since I generally ride to the front of first flight). Anyway, W was refusing to pass the mare, so I slowed to try the other side, when another member passed me (all of us going at speed). At that point the mare let fly with both hooves and knocked down the horse giving the rider a concussion in the fall. That would have been me had W passed the mare.
But I have 3000 acres of crop land I can ride after harvest. One of my first and favorite things to do after harvest is to ride the perimeter and look for holes, trash, downed trees, etc so when the snow falls, I know where the hazards are. W (as I said is really smart) will stop flat dead --refuse to go forward EXACTLY one step from half way around (it takes about 4 hours to ride the perimeter). At that moment, W knows he’s closer to turn around and go back than he is to go forward. HE KNOWS it’s closer to go back than to go forward. I turn him around, back him past the half-way mark and he’s fine. NOW it’s closer to go forward than to go backward. Other than that, we discuss -footing, water, are discussed. He has his opinion and states it through body language, and I listen, consider, and then do what I think we should. He’s obedient, but does like to put forth his thoughts.
Foxglove
Like others have said, it depends. But even if I heed the horses advice and not take a certain trail, I certainly wouldn’t take them home. The ride continues, just another way, so if it is misbehavior, they don’t completely get away with it.
I usually got the “no, not here” in response to requests to trot through snow. I always honored it in the winter when I couldn’t see the ice under the snow. If they start ignoring the leg, it is easy to fix in the spring!
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;7910709]
Well Mum didn’t listen to Tommy when he told her not to turn on a track. After hours going the wrong way and not listening to him they finally gave him his head.
Sick of being told he couldn’t go the way he wanted, he brought then home over hill and dale and off tne tracks.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes, horses are incredible when it comes to finding their way home, and giving a horse his head, trusting him to find the way, has nothing to do with saying ‘no’
Many a horse will say no at a point in the trail where one direction heads home, and the other goes further on. Okay if you intend to go home, but not so good when the horse decides that the ride has been long enough!
I have many times given my horse his head, riding out of some mountain area in the dark, with my horse finding all those river crossings in the dark that I never would have
Once, we had climbed a high ridge, to above the tree line. Once up there, yo can make you way to various places, but there is only one way down that you have to pick up again, knowing where it starts at that treeline, as the trail down winds in a treed slope , where a deep canyon lies between there and another mountain slope
On etime, as it was getting close to dusk, hubby and I rode back and forth along that valley up above the treeline, looking for the way down, Hubby, who always states he has a much better sense of direction, insisted that the way down was along one cliff, but no evidence of a trail was found. Our obedient horses rode back and forth , as we searched,.
Finally, not keen on spending a night up there without even a sleeping bag, I gave my horse her head
She took us unerringly to a break in the hardrock, far further up that valley then my husband though was possible for that trail to be
I got a grudging, ‘well for once you were right’ Actually, it was my horse that was right, who never had a chance to take part in our argument"!
Like someone else said, don’t lie to your horse, by putting them in danger, telling them something is safe when it is not, but on the other hand, you have your human judgement, and your horse has to learn to trust that leadership also
You know that big rock sitting in the shadows is not a bear, thus having the horse say ‘no’ far as passing that boulder, esp on a tricky slope, leaves no room for negotiation, but an executive decision has to be made by the rider, and obeyed by the horse
