Alternatives to lunging?

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I have a 12 yr old QH gelding. If he’s in regular work, he’s fine - but for him, regular work is at least an hour’s ride three or four times a week. For me - trying to run my own business and with these short winter days - this is tough.

He’s not the kind of guy you can just go get out of the pasture and hop on Saturday morning if he’s sat in the pasture since Sunday afternoon. Well, maybe some people could. But me, I don’t like trying to sit the silliness. He’s kind of reactive, and he’ll do the stop, drop, and scoot at the least little thing.

So naturally my trainer says to lunge him. Which we’ve been doing. But even my trainer admits he “lunges up.” Meaning he gets even more hyped. So after he lunges (duration is up to him - I lunge him until he stops bucking and gives me nice transitions when I ask and sometimes this takes ten minutes and sometimes fifteen or so) he has to be walked to chill out for ten or fifteen minutes. Then you can get on him, but you’ll need to do some bending and flexing for the first little bit.

I’d really like to find something to do besides lunging him. I tried doing groundwork - asking him to step over with his hind feet, yield his forequarters, keep pace with me at walk and trot, drive him through obstacles - but sadly, this did not help the reactivity when I first mount up.

Anybody have any ideas?

[ambar]

What about substituting the groundwork for the “walking to chill out” after lunging? Really, it sounds like it’s his brain you have trouble getting into the game.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=ambar;7281669]
What about substituting the groundwork for the “walking to chill out” after lunging? Really, it sounds like it’s his brain you have trouble getting into the game.[/QUOTE]

Good suggestion, and I could do that. I just wish I could leave out the lunging part. I’m trying to teach quietness, so I dislike doing something that I know will produce the opposite.

You’re right about the engaging-brain part. I think I have Wiley Coyote in a horse costume, sometimes. In an effort to get him to think while lunging, my trainer once set up a little obstacle with those snap-together jumps. Y’know, the kind where the pole fits into a slot in two plastic blocks. I asked him to lunge over it. Conjure stopped in his tracks in front of the jump.

“What should I do now?” I asked.

“Let him have a look at it,” replied Trainer.

So I did. Conjure stretched down his nose, had a long look, then took the pole in his teeth, removed it from the slots, set it on the ground, and stepped over it. :lol:

[Flash44]

Do you tie him up to the wall or a post in a halter? I find that this puts the horse in a good mental frame of mind without the wear and tear on their bodies. I tack and tie up for about 30 minutes before riding. Mentally the horse resigns itself to submitting to the loss of freedom, and it will have much less attitude once it’s asked to work. You can tie the horse up again after your ride is finished and the horse is cool enough to stand still. Leave the tack on. I have three horses that get ridden, and they all three get tied up and stay tied up until the last horse is finished, even if I only have time to ride one of them. They usually just drop their heads and go to sleep. It’s a very kind, humane method of getting the horse in a good frame of mind.

[longride1]

You’re training reactivity by allowing it on the lunge. He should never be allowed to buck or play on the lunge line. I have one mare that was allowed to “play it out.” She will actually hurt her back with her antics. The solution - start with ground work, then walk her, start moving her out away from me, and stop her instantly if she tries to do anything but a relaxed walk. Horses like this want to move. Teach the horse that it will only be allowed to move if it is doing it relaxed and at the gait and tempo you want. Otherwise the game stops - right there, that stride. I can get this mare lunging steadily without being stupid from the first stride in three sessions. I have to keep doing it every year because her owner can’t seem to grasp the concept.

90% of training is teaching muscle memory. The horse learns how to react by what it is successful in doing. If it is successful at bucking the first 5 minutes of lunging it will always do it. If it is never taught an alternate reaction to outside stimuli when it’s under saddle it will always spend the first three days being a nut. That’s the secret of “keeping them busy” when you first get on a horse like this - going forward in response to stimuli replaces the stop drop scoot. The smarter the horse, the more important never allowing “bad” behavior becomes.

[fire_911medic]

I don’t know if you know how to ground drive but it is easy cheap and doesn’t require much equipment. Two lunge lines work just fine. Doing it tacked really helps. I do this with my stud on his days off and I have noticed a huge change. Transitions leg yield shoulder in haunches in all help them soften and relax. My guy is an up lunger as well so I can sympathize. Less now than when he was younger. I even do a cone driving course and over and around small obstacles. Gives him something to do while reinforcing a I said forward it isn’t an option mindset. Love it and he seems to as well !

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7281652]

So naturally my trainer says to lunge him. Which we’ve been doing. But even my trainer admits he “lunges up.” Meaning he gets even more hyped. So after he lunges (duration is up to him - I lunge him until he stops bucking and gives me nice transitions when I ask and sometimes this takes ten minutes and sometimes fifteen or so) he has to be walked to chill out for ten or fifteen minutes. Then you can get on him, but you’ll need to do some bending and flexing for the first little bit.

Anybody have any ideas?[/QUOTE]

Well, you could try lunging him correctly. “Lunging” properly, with a lunging cavasson, etc. is not suppose to be a chance for the horse to go nuts, which is what so many people tend to think.

It’s just another way of training. The horse needs to concentrate and respond to your requests for changes of gait, tempo, etc. Once they have to honestly LISTEN to you, they don’t have time for such silliness.

As someone noted, you simply don’t allow that crap. If you are lunging with just a nylon halter, you have very little actual control, so your horse has simply learned that lunging is “PARTY TIME!!” This needs to be corrected.

I was going to suggest ground work in a round pen, but it sounds like you tried that. However, I haven’t had it fail too many times, so I think you need a different pro to help refine your techniques…sounds like you really don’t have an experienced mentor to help you with this stuff.

Barring that, (and PLEASE don’t take this the wrong way), you might be better served with a different horse. I mean, the horse is in a pasture all day, so it’s not like he’s been locked in a stall.

Sounds like a pretty simple case of the horse being in charge and not respecting you as a leader.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7282640]
Do you tie him up to the wall or a post in a halter? I find that this puts the horse in a good mental frame of mind without the wear and tear on their bodies. [/QUOTE]

Very interesting tip…this would be the easiest thing for the OP to try, because it doesn’t require any finesse or timing. Curious to see if it’s successful.

[fairtheewell]

For a western horse, teach him to jog (not jig)…jog him till he is bored…he’ll be glad to walk. A correct jog is harder work for a horse than zooming around. Work on the longeline should be work and never used to allow him to buck and play. If you must longe him, make him go “slow”. JMO

[Lilykoi]

I agree with longride1. I don’t let my filly play on the longe either and I don’t believe in chasing her around the ring. This is work time and I need to instill that ethic. I am lucky to have a young horse that learns quickly. One of my favorite tools is a good rope halter. If she does decide to go crazy, that gets her attention back on work quickly without being severe.

[longride1]

Be careful of rope halters. They can be severe. Those knots hit the most sensitive parts of the horse. The mare mentioned above hates them and using one for sharp discipline is counterproductive. A worried frightened horse, the kind that stop and drop, may respond better to being kept on a short line and slow work next to the handler until the message begins to get across.

[californianinkansas]

Your horse sounds like the QH version of my Arab. Lunging just makes him more energized. My boy needs two things in order to be happy: movement and mental challenges. He does not do well with repetitive busy work. The bad behavior is almost always due to boredom.

Reactivity can mean different things to different people. What are the specific behaviors or series of behaviors that you want to eliminate in your horse?

Have you tried clicker training (operant conditioning) with your horse, at least for groundwork?

When I started clicker training with my very hot, reactive Arab gelding it was like a light went on in his head. If my Arab was a person, his favorite things would be running marathons and solving difficult math problems.

Best,
Amber

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Thanks for the responses. Y’all have helped me think this through a bit more.

Trainer’s philosophy is: let’s put him on the lunge to see if there’s silliness in there. If so, let’s get it out before we sit upon him. She doesn’t chase him around or encourage silliness - if he responds to her nicely then she might only lunge five minutes or less. If he takes off cantering or bucking though, she’ll let him get it out of his system (within reason).

This past late summer/early fall, though, I thought I’d try something different. I did something similar to what longride1 suggests in her last post. I put him in a rope halter on a 12’ lead with a popper, and kept him slow till I asked for faster. If he slipped into a higher gear than I wanted, I’d bump the lead as the inside hind came off the ground and get him back to the gait I’d asked for.

I thought it worked pretty well, but we didn’t ride from about mid Aug till mid Oct. When I resumed riding, Mr. Reactive reappeared when the saddle did.

But - I’ve just realized that I wasn’t working him in the tack last summer! Mainly because it was hotter than forty hells, but also because we’d just recently switched to western and I hated to put that wool blanket and big saddle on him.

Now it occurs to me that he’s not used to being lunged in a long wool blanket with stirrups banging against his sides. In fact, he’s not got a lot of experience at any kind of work in the new rig. I guess I might’ve skipped a pretty big step.

I think I’ll try doing the same stuff I tried before, only I’ll tack him up first. And then see if I get the same horse under saddle that I had on the ground.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@californianinkansas;7283118

Reactivity can mean different things to different people. What are the specific behaviors or series of behaviors that you want to eliminate in your horse?

Have you tried clicker training (operant conditioning) with your horse, at least for groundwork?

Sorry, Amber, cross-posted with you.

Reactivity to me means he responds to environmental stimuli in a way appropriate to a prey animal - letsgettheheckouttahere! - instead of listening to my aids.

Oh, Conjure loves clicker-training. I’ve used it both on the ground and under saddle. I found it very helpful in getting rid of some unwanted behaviors as well as a quick way to produce some behaviors I wanted to see. But I also found that there are other behaviors he apparently finds more reinforcing than clicks and treats. I think it’s a great tool to have in the box, though.

[longride1]

You may be on to something, Paint-Misbehavin. I remember training Haflingers for a client. She brought one horse who had been trained to drive and said she wanted to ride him that day. She had a big ol western saddle on him. I stopped her just before she put her foot in the stirrup and spent some time moving him and getting him used to stirrups bumping on his sides and the feel of the new tack. It became very clear very fast that the saddle would have scared him, and solid cart horse though he was, he needed some time to adjust. When she did get on him he was fine.

[re-runs]

Groundwork not only gets the horses mind on us but it is like body therapy/relaxation to the horse. When we ask the horse to step over behind with a curve in it`s body and a float in the rope, it is asking and helping the horse let go of tension in the spine, poll and jaw. There are little signs, indications that this is happening, and the horse is ready for you to step on. I also teach my horses to pick me up when they are ready to mount.

In buckaroo horsemanship this is called “turning loose” and some horses just need that before every ride. I agree with whoever said if you let them tear around and buck, then this is what they get in the habit of doing. Besides, some of them are just adrenaline junkies like some of the tbs that I rehab…the more they run, the higher they get. They are bred to love the feeling and then some horses of other breeds like it too. It probably has something to do with self preservation programmed into them and running the appropriate distance to safety. (here I go repeating that this comes from a horse`s “original instructions”.)

Deb Bennett has discussed this at length on her website and in her series of articles in Eclectic Horseman. You can get back articles of the magazine. The one that might be most helpful is the one on head twirling.

Here is something that might help you understand from her website…a thread called, Square Feel.

http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/755.html

[TheHunterKid90]

I would change a few things:

1. lunge time should never be play time or “get the silly out” time. You need to teach your horse that whenever he’s under your thumb, whether it be lunging, hand walking, or riding, he is to behave in a respectful and safe manner. If you feel as though your horse is “up” and you should lunge him the. You can start on a very small circle. Think 5-8’ of line. If he starts to explode or buck, disengage his hip and stop him. Start again. Rinse and repeat until he stops. Make him understand that he can lope and work out his excess energy but he can’t act like a fool. Lunging is NEVER playtime.

2. invest a little time into a patience pole. We have two different ways of tying our horses. One way is to suspend a pulley about muzzle level in the rafters of the indoor and install a bull snap onto it. The other way is to bury an old car axle vertically in the ground and attach a chain and snap to the top. Either way, all of our horses (yearlings and up) can stand on a patience pole quietly for an hour or two. We aren’t making them uncomfortable by suspending their head in the air. In fact, their head/neck is in just about a normal relaxed position when they’re tied. We are simply using it so teach them to submit a little. If they jump around, that’s fine, they’re just pulling against themselves and they quickly learn to just stand quiet. It’s amazing the difference in an “up horse” who’s been tied for a half hour before he’s ridden. It manages to calm and focus them and makes our jobs a lot easier.

3. the only other thing I would check on is if his feed or hay has changed? Our barn help changed about a month ago and I was noticing our horses were more up than usual. (Our breeding lines are super quiet) and come to find out, our help was doubling their ration of alfalfa. Talk about high octane!! :lol:

[LookmaNohands]

I second ground driving. It gets the horse listening to you and that is what you really need. It is much more effective than tiring them out. It will give you enough of a warm up that you could go right into trot and canter once you get on. Lots of transitions, cavelletti and work up hill if you have them.

How much turn-out is he getting? What is he getting fed?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7282841]
Well, you could try lunging him correctly. “Lunging” properly, with a lunging cavasson, etc. is not suppose to be a chance for the horse to go nuts, which is what so many people tend to think.

It’s just another way of training. The horse needs to concentrate and respond to your requests for changes of gait, tempo, etc. Once they have to honestly LISTEN to you, they don’t have time for such silliness.

As someone noted, you simply don’t allow that crap. If you are lunging with just a nylon halter, you have very little actual control, so your horse has simply learned that lunging is “PARTY TIME!!” This needs to be corrected.

I was going to suggest ground work in a round pen, but it sounds like you tried that. However, I haven’t had it fail too many times, so I think you need a different pro to help refine your techniques…sounds like you really don’t have an experienced mentor to help you with this stuff.

Barring that, (and PLEASE don’t take this the wrong way), you might be better served with a different horse. I mean, the horse is in a pasture all day, so it’s not like he’s been locked in a stall.

Sounds like a pretty simple case of the horse being in charge and not respecting you as a leader.[/QUOTE]

Agreed with above. Try ground-driving, with surcingles & side-reins if you feel comfortable with it. Teach him to leg-yield on command, work on serpentines and various figures. Anything that can be done under saddle can be done on the ground with the patience to teach it (except maybe jumping). I like ground-driving because it is an easy way to warm up a horse before sitting on their back – I feel much more in control than I do lunging, and perhaps best of all, you can implement bigger lateral movements into ground driving than you can lunging – the exercises are just so much broader. I would rather spend 20 minutes polishing off leg yields at the walk (and maybe trot) than asking a horse to canter any silliness out. One other thing to consider - the more you lunge him and allow the antic behavior, the fitter he is going to get…

A lot of horses will lunge-up if allowed to do antics. I personally don’t see the point of antics anyway - it has two drawbacks: 1, it hypes them up and 2, they can easily hurt themselves. I would much rather work the horse calmly and quietly on the ground before allowing it.

FWIW, haven’t met many horses willing to do antics in (even loose) side-reins.

[Flash44]

I have a mare that has not been ridden in 7 months. Saturday I spun her around on the lungeline for a few minutes for a soundness check, and she was feeling good and playful despite having been turned out all day. Yesterday I tied her up for 30 minutes, tacked her up, and put her back on the lunge line. She was calm and quiet, so I got on her after about 5 minutes of jogging on the lunge line. Rode her for about 20 minutes with no problems and a great attitude.