[QUOTE=mp;7649376]
Legs and seat? Connection and suppleness isn’t just about the reins. ;)[/QUOTE]
What should my legs and seat be doing?
Your legs and seat influence, alter, and control each part of the horse. The reins can’t create a supple horse with a connection. The hind end pushed through the back, under your saddle, where you are able to lift and support the horse’s back with your seat, as the shoulders stretch forward and the neck opens and the tail connects to the head. Your thighs can draw or nudge a shoulder or a hind end into a lateral movement, or just keep your horse straight.
You just need to find an instructor who can introduce back to front instead of just worrying about the front.
Am I the only one picturing confused riders doing the cabbage patch?
(Ive never heard of the pot stirring thing)
[QUOTE=DancingArabian;7649522]
Am I the only one picturing confused riders doing the cabbage patch?
(Ive never heard of the pot stirring thing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW69vx_pPo&sns=em[/QUOTE]
Lol, nope!
[QUOTE=BrionesRider;7649505]
The reins can’t create a supple horse with a connection. The hind end pushed through the back, under your saddle, where you are able to lift and support the horse’s back with your seat, as the shoulders stretch forward and the neck opens and the tail connects to the head. …
You just need to find an instructor who can introduce back to front instead of just worrying about the front.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, you might be better with a trainer who encourages correct movement even if it’s not someone who bills him/herself as “dressage”.
My horse is very forward but tends to be tense. What Briones says applies even then … tension makes a horse quick, but not forward from behind. One instructor has not been able to help us with tension because she focuses on the high head/poor connection in front since it appears the horse is moving forward.
While my horse has been off, I had the opportunity to have some rides with a schoolmaster who tends to be lazy. Here I had no choice but to motivate the back end. HIS trainer said “give up the reins … it’s already ugly, so don’t worry about it, just get him off your leg and moving from behind …” So, we worked on response from my seat/leg. When he was moving correctly, the connection in front was just like they say.
If you have an chance to work on your own, work hard at NOT following the horse’s face around. Check that the horse is off your seat/leg with tests … ask for forward in the gait and if you don’t get it, let go of the face (not the reins, but don’t try to “hold”) and demand a forward response. Reward. Repeat. Keep your focus on the movement under you. As this trainer said, “have ONE conversation at a time. if it’s about forward, don’t confuse things … make it about this ONE thing.” … This is particularly difficult for me and I thought, “well, that works on a lazy horse …”
But no, it works on my horse, too. We’re only at the walk (rehabbing), but paying attention to the energy source and then “catching” it in front has made me a much more attentive rider.
From the quality of instruction you are receiving it would appear that it would be well worth your while to invest in as many of Jane Savoie’s basic riding videos as you can.
The one already mentioned is a good one. Any that can help you understand the value of correct position, and the use of your body in achieving the forward that will of itself produce the roundness maintained by fingers will be helpful.
[QUOTE=zaparaquah;7649493]
To those of you who are questioning the instruction I’ve been getting: I’m totally with you, but I’m afraid this is pretty much the only dressage instructor with lesson horses anywhere near me. So for the time being, I’m just going to learn what I can from her and supplement it with other resources as much as I can. And anyway, i may be exaggerating her emphasis on reins a bit since that’s the part I am struggling with…
I never seem to have good luck with instructors, sadly. Haha[/QUOTE]
Ah, you are riding a school horse. That makes a difference. School horses are frequently really dead in the mouth from riders balancing off them. This horse may be dead in the mouth and heavy on the bit for that reason, and if you can get him out of his defensive mode, you may have more ability to influence him. The instructor undoubtedly knows this horse. But you need to understand that you wouldn’t do this with an ordinary horse that is not a schoolie, and even with a schoolie, if you ever hope to get an honest steady contact with the bit, then your hands have to be quiet and steady.
[QUOTE=alicen;7649264]
Ahhh, that’s different. “Turning a key in a lock” affects how the horse bends at the poll. Back to Jane Savoi again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-MEsdOTisc[/QUOTE]
I agree with this, turning a key in the lock helps a locked horse bend at the poll and is an important part of getting a horse supple and connected. You don’t ALWAYS keep your hands totally still, there are all sorts of very fine almost unseen things you can do with your hands in specific situations.
I am learning contact also. Thank god my horse is a saint. It is not easy and is not learned in one ay. The basics are so important. I would seek a trainer who is not teaching dressage per se but correct flat work if there is no one else. Bad habits are hard to correct. Watch lots of videos and see if you can practice o your own and in front of mirrors…
Where are you located?
Sticking up for school horses everywhere: School horses in a good quality program are NOT dead the band. Or anything else. If they are, you are not in a good quality program.
Now, they are hopefully SELECTIVE about what they respond to, and may ignore incorrect aids, but that is completely different 
Sticking up for school horses everywhere: School horses in a good quality program are NOT dead the hand. Or anything else. If they are, you are not in a good quality program.
Now, they are hopefully SELECTIVE about what they respond to, and may ignore incorrect aids, but that is completely different
Also sticking up for school horses. In my experience, ask a school horse correctly and they will do as asked. They may have learned to tune out the mistakes, false messages and white noise of communication from beginners. Getting a school horse to work well is very satisfying.
Let’s hear it for school horses!
Also, be sure to ask (again and again) your trainer EXACTLY what s/he means. Ask for more explanations, a visual/technical from the ground, that s/he gets on the horse and show you the aid (in an exagerate and then subtle way) and the result.
Is what s/he is asking of you is a step in a longer processus or just a direct instant command? What’s the big picture?
Ask questions until it is clear of what you have to do, how you should do it and what should be the end result. How often, in which situation, for how long and what are the next steps.
We only have the OP’s version of what is being asked. We can’t put all the “blame” on the trainer for the OP’s (possible mis-)understanding or misconception!
There are no “good quality programs” in my area. There are very, very few programs with school horses and those that have them are usually for children who are learning to post the trot. They do not have educated schoolmasters, they have kind, gentle senior citizens without much advanced schooling.
Even my beginner horses (ranging in age from 15 to 25, and all are safe for toddlers or adults) are responsive to the aids. If you keep a rider on the lunge line long enough for them to get balanced and relaxed in the seat, they never need the horse’s mouth to balance. They learn to use the leg, they learn to hold the reins, they learn to steer, all on the line. They can be light with their aids as soon as they are off the L.Line.
Again, there is not reason for a school horse to be dull to the aids. If they are, it teaches the rider to use the incorrect aids right off the bat, and they will have to unlearn things if they want to progress. My best walk-trot horse goes with the reins attached to the caveson, and she steers primarily off the rider’s eye and weight aids.
Sorry for the off-topic rant…
[QUOTE=arlosmine;7651952]
Even my beginner horses (ranging in age from 15 to 25, and all are safe for toddlers or adults) are responsive to the aids. If you keep a rider on the lunge line long enough for them to get balanced and relaxed in the seat, they never need the horse’s mouth to balance. They learn to use the leg, they learn to hold the reins, they learn to steer, all on the line. They can be light with their aids as soon as they are off the L.Line.
Again, there is not reason for a school horse to be dull to the aids. If they are, it teaches the rider to use the incorrect aids right off the bat, and they will have to unlearn things if they want to progress. My best walk-trot horse goes with the reins attached to the caveson, and she steers primarily off the rider’s eye and weight aids.
Sorry for the off-topic rant…[/QUOTE]
I’m not disagreeing with you, but it simply not something you see around my area. Beginner’s lessons are mostly children’s group lessons. Can’t buy a longe lesson anywhere at any price.
Sack your instructor and find one who knows what they are doing.
Going on the bit should come from your legs, not from the hand.
Holding the contact in a light supple hand you should be able to use your legs and the horse stretch it’s top line so that poll is over the mouth, with nose just in front of the vertical.
It is easy to say “sack the instructor,” and I agree that this is my thought as well. However, that does not address the problem that in many areas of the country, there are really no good instructors. Because someone can give lessons and can ride, does not mean that they were taught correctly either. Most instructors are doing their best to interpret what they think they were taught, and pass that information on to the person taking the lesson. Unfortunately, many instructors are missing some of the beginning pieces of the dressage work, and these pieces are the start of the foundation of the training. To ride dessage, the rider must become the trainer. So if the instructor has never learned the beginning of the training of the horse, the pupil will not learn either. So the incorrectness gets passed on and on, becoming imbedded in the dressage mentality. I really do not see a solution to the problem for most people who are attempting to ride.
As to schooling horses…they are few and far between, if you can find any at all. Most of them are not trained correctly either judging from the few on which I have sat back when I was desparate for answers. The one thing that I can tell you is that if you cannot get an explaination from your instructor that you can readily understand, and/or if you feel in your heart that something is wrong in what you are being expected to do, listen to your head and your heart. If you find these two things true, then all the lessons in the world from this instructor are going to create problems in your riding, and you are just wasting your money.
Your hands do play a part in the beginning training of the horse, and they are more active at the beginning of the training. But, they need to be used in connection with the way your whole body, including your seat in the saddle is being used. You have to be taught when to use this, how to use it, what to look for in the feeling/response from the horse that is created. And believe it or not, most instructors cannot see the incorrectness in the rider unless the balance is really flawed. It is taught as something wrong with the hands or the feet, and does not address the core from where balance begins.
I have a steady contact with short enough reins that if something begins to “fall apart” I can send forward with legs/seat, or straighten with legs/seat and if necessary just strengthen the bend in my elbow for outside rein, squeeze inside rein fingers, like squeezing a sponge. My more schooled horse has a lighter connection generally, greener horse has more steady, firmer connection.
But I think, you must not make big movements with your arms/wrists to give most reins aids. You need to have a good enough contact that you can just use your fingers, or make a change in how soft or strong your position is, but not actually making a significant motion.
