Amadeus movie horsey question--riding a carriage horse?

[Lauruffian]

I watched Amadeus for the first in a very long time today (and coincidentally, about an hour later I heard Rock Me Amadeus on the radio for the first in a very long time). I was, of course, checking out things horsey in various scenes.

Toward the end, when Stanzie is being driven back to the dying Wolfie’s home, her carriage is being pulled by a team of four. One of the two front horses–I believe the horse on the front left–is simultaneously being ridden (and it appeared the rider was at least partially holding the reins of the horse next to them) while also pulling the carriage. I couldn’t get a good look-see to determine if there as a saddle with the harness, or what.

I know just a teensy weensy bit about driving, but have never seen this sort of thing. When and why was (is? does it still happen?) this sort of thing done?

[Alagirl]

pretty common for the carriage horses being lead that way.
I am thinking it was the left horse.
I knew the reason why at one time, but I honestly forgot.

It was actually practiced up until the 1930s and likely throughout WWII, especially with artillery horses, as the caisons for the canons (I am sure I will be corrected shortly on this, but it’s kinda late and I have a cold) had no place for a coachman to sit.

Need to dig my old handbook out…

[SonnysMom]

It seems like I have read about it but nothing more. You might get a better response in the Driving forum

[NorthwoodsRider]

It is the normal in a funeral caisson. All the horses are saddled, but only those on the left are ridden.

Ronald Regan funeral caisson

US Navy Old Guard Funeral Caisson for Adm. William J. Crowe

From what I found on a search, the tradition came from the horses that pulled the cannon. There was no “driver” so the riders controlled the horses, the horses on the left carried riders, the horses on the right carried supplies.

[DancingArabian]

It’s the postillion rider. They “discovered” posting the trot too.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postilion

[ShotenStar]

See also the term “postilion”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postilion

star

[Lauruffian]

Interesting. Learn something new every day.

And gotta love the internet. Here’s a clip of the film that includes the ridden-driving horse (starting at 4:05): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2pyEvp8ls

It’s the Confutatis scribing, one of my all-time favorite scenes ever in a film. Since I’m sharing that scene, here’s some great trivia I learned about it today (copied and pasted from the IMDB):

• When shooting the scene in which Salieri is writing down the death mass under Mozart’s dictation, Tom Hulce was deliberately skipping lines to confuse F. Murray Abraham, in order to achieve the impression that Salieri wasn’t able to fully understand the music he was dictated.

• During the start Confutatis section dictation, a miscue from John Strauss (who was cuing the music phrase for both actors via AM wave hearing aids) got Tom Hulce lost and confused because he was waiting for the exact pitch and phrase coming in. The miscue was included in the final film - when F. Murray Abraham repeats the phrase ‘A minor’, Hulce was not responding for a while as he was actually waiting for the cue.

[Jaideux]

Well I just lost 30 minutes of my night to the hole that is YouTube and Amadeus clips. It’s one of my favorites so thank you

[Plainandtall]

Dress rehearsal for a royal wedding:

http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2011/04/28/800x_b1_cCM_z/Royal-Wedding.jpg

Another on the day of the big event:

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Queen+Elizabeth+II+Royal+Wedding+Carriage+QBI8PPUmXSYl.jpg

[Lauruffian]

I’m curious why this was done, when there are carts/carriages drawn by 4 and 6 (and 8, in the Budweiser clydesdales’ case) horses with no postilion rider. Is this for cases when the horses aren’t completely broke to drive, and the rider is needed to ensure more control?

[skydy]

Postilions were used rather more for important and/or paying passengers, for their safety against runaway teams.

Well trained carriage horses can lose their minds on occasion, just like any other horses.

[Plainandtall]

Some vehicles are designed with no driver’s seat- as in artillery - or for royalty, or the Pope. So in those cases it’s both practical- and/or extra formal. I don’t know if it’s actually part of the tradition or purpose or mindset- but to me- when I see a coach (like at the vatican museum) with no driver’s seat- it’s an automatic indicator to me that the person who would ride inside is so superhumanly special- that they don’t even share the same space with a coachman- that the only one supported by those wheels is the very important person.

While it is possible to drive big hitches without someone up front to guide the leaders- very often there ARE assistants on foot or on horseback even if they aren’t riding postillion. When giant hitches round corners- the driver cant even see where the leaders are headed. (see this amazing photo and remember it the next time you consider jumping on the bandwagon- http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=21099)

I’d imagine that on old roads in England working at a travelling speed with close walls and hedges- having a pair of human eyes way up front was much more important than when driving a 20 gang combine in a field of wheat.

[gothedistance]

[QUOTE=Lauruffian;7267862]
I’m curious why this was done, when there are carts/carriages drawn by 4 and 6 (and 8, in the Budweiser clydesdales’ case) horses with no postilion rider. Is this for cases when the horses aren’t completely broke to drive, and the rider is needed to ensure more control?[/QUOTE]

In a word…no.

You need to go back to the times when horses were the main means of fast and/or long distance transportation, and readily available for hire. There were three situations when a postilion were specifically called for, and used:

1. When hired horses were needed for private long distance travel. Stages (waypoints that hired out carriage horses) would rent out a pair with a post boy that would be attached to the front of a vehicle and the boy would drive/ride the pair to the next stage where the pair would be unhooked and a new pair put to the vehicle. This eliminated the need for the vehicle owner to have to overnight his own horses, or in the case where an additional pair would be employed to assist the owner’s pair, the cost to house multiple horses at each overight stage. When a postilion pair was hired, it relieved the vehicle owner of having to spend his (or her) time driving and left him (or her) to enjoy the scenery, or chat with a traveling companion. It was also much cheaper than the owner staging his (or her) own horses for long distances (100’s of miles), and the hired horses could go longer, farther, faster because each stage was a fresh pair.

2. When the carriage owner didn’t wish to drive themselves, nor want a driver perched on a box seat to block the view of the road or - more importantly - to overhear conversation. A posting boy could be any boy from the owner’s stable (cheaper and easier to come by than an experienced coachman) and by being both off the carriage and far enough away (on a horse with the noise of the roads and hooves) offered the owner a very private conveyance to the passengers without the need of the owner having to pay attention to either the road or the horses. Rather like a chauffeur in front of a glass partition in the later era.

3. When an extra set of horses was needed to complete a difficult stage whether from terrain, weather, or overloaded vehicles. Again - cheap, easily available, less worry as the horses were hired and not owned.

In 1. and 3. the method of using a posting boy and post horses is both cheap and expedient. For 2. the use of a post boy on a pair is more for privacy and unobstructed views of the countryside.

There you go.

[gothedistance]

BTW - I watched that scene in Amadeus. Typical Hollywood. All wrong.

(Spoiler Alert: If you don’t want to be disillusioned, don’t read past this point.)

A public coach that size and weight would have had a team of 4 ALL being driven by a coachman on the box. It would NOT have had a coachman driving just the wheelers and a postilion on one of the leaders. That is a rediculous waste of $$$ to hire a boy while there is a coachman in attendance.

Any post boy employed would have been riding a pair of cocking horses - a pair put in front of a team of four, creating a multiple of 6, and only on bad terrain (tough to negotiate due to mud, water, or hills).

Public road coaches were all about speed, and getting from point A to B with the least expense and waste of horseflesh and manpower.

Hollywood just wanted this scene to look “cool”. Not authentic.

[gothedistance]

I’d imagine that on old roads in England working at a travelling speed with close walls and hedges- having a pair of human eyes way up front was much more important

That was actually the job of the guard. He was on the rear of the coach, and it was his job to watch for problems, highway men, and to warn on-comers (via his coaching horn) of his coach’s progress. When he blasted out a tune on that horn, it traveled a long way ahead, and was sufficient warning to foot traffic, driving traffic, farmers, landowners, and the upcoming way station to be ready for the appearance of a fast moving road coach. There were even certain “calls” used for certain road coaches, so that anyone hearing the tune would know which coach was on the road, soon to come into view.

(And yes, I have the sheet music for those wonderful old coaching tunes, as well as three coaching horns that I play. :D) If you want to read up a bit on this, go to: http://www.coachhorntootlers.com/

[gothedistance]

I’d imagine that on old roads in England working at a travelling speed with close walls and hedges- having a pair of human eyes way up front was much more important

That was the job of the guard. He was on the rear of the coach, and it was his job to watch for problems, highway men, and to warn on-comers (via the coaching horn) of his coach’s progress. When he blasted out a tune on that horn, it traveled a long way ahead, and was sufficient warning to foot traffic, driving traffic, farmers, landowners, and the upcoming way station to be ready for the appearance of a fast moving road coach.

[Lauruffian]

I love the COTH. Your posts are fascinating to read, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I learned. It makes sense to use a postilion as an extra pair of eyes as well as an extra bit of security. I love learning stuff like this. Forgive the ignorance of my “Is it because the horse isn’t trained?” comment, as I really had no other ideas why.

Y’all are so cool. Thanks again!

[ccoronios]

Here’s another link to Dick Sparrow’s 40-horse Belgian hitch. A friend of mine had the honor of working with him at the Circus Parade a few years before he died. http://books.google.com/books?id=T1I1BiI03gEC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=Dick+Sparrow+40+horse+hitch&source=bl&ots=m3e6UL3hvy&sig=w-3epG1MFbcIJpW_9L8B7VyYNIY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kzSOUvatMqalsQSeuYDABg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Dick%20Sparrow%2040%20horse%20hitch&f=false

Just think - the Budweiser hitch is 8 - 2 across, 4 out. This hitch is 4 across - 10 out - and as someone mentioned, when they turn corners, Dick couldn’t see the front few rows. They had 3 outriders on each side - no postillons, though.

The original Barnum & Bailey 40 is shown above.

You’ve GOT to read the two paragraphs.

Check out the pic of the reins in Powry’s hands! And riders can’t manage TWO???

[walktrot]

Keep an eye out on C-SPAN when they are running a ceremony from England. The Queen frequently will be in a some sort of vehicle where the horses are ridden. I love it when they show the BBC coverage of the opening of Parliament.

[RedmondDressage]

gothedistance - That is SUPER interesting. Thank you for sharing!