Amateur Bill of Rights? -- COTH Article by Penelope Ayers

I can not speak for others but I can say why I need “hand-holding” at shows and it has nothing to do with not knowing my horse.
It has to do with my crazy show nerves where my brain exits my body and goes to visit … who knows where. My amazing trainer knew how to focus me enough that my wonderful horse could go do his job.
Since my budget only allowed one, maybe two, rated shows per year the nerves never went away.

I am sure I am not alone in this category.

But this is a total tangent on the original topic.

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The eight year old daughter of a friend told me that she had totally given up riding - which she loved and was good at - because her family would never have enough money for her to get any better.

Only eight. So sad. How many other children have had to learn an early lesson about exclusion and social elitism when all they wanted to do was enjoy horses?

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Clearly the child was told if she didn’t do well the parents would not continue to pay for lessons.
What’s truly sad is the child thinking that showing is all there is. Of course she could be talentless on the ring and ride like a gypsy in the fields! Does anyone ride in the fields anymore?

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This screams a problem with the adults in the life of this child more than a problem with the fact that showing in the H/J world costing money.

One can ride and improve and be amazing and not spend a dime on horse shows.

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No, the child had identified the issue not the parents. Her grandmother bred horses. The parents were supportive. She stopped.

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That. The US system has developed a mindset of “learned helplessness” to borrow a phrase, where riders cannot do anything without supervision. Groom, tack up, ride, show - much less buy a horse. So you need to pay a trainer to do it all and the cost mounts, pricing many out of the game. The seeming inability to run classes on time is just a symptom of that.

It’s a prestige mindset - I have a trainer, I have grooms, I have all the money and time in the world to show. If we keep placing value in being rich, those behaviors perpetuate. The people who do have all the money and time won’t change the way this business is done until the money stops flowing in or the highest values that drive the business change.

However since those shows cater to the rich they won’t change. So the solution might be more C shows. With realistic expectations.

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Was that only at the bigger shows? A-rated ones? Or all shows? If it was all, that is where more low-key local or schooling shows (with lower costs) can help. If only at the larger ones or A-rated, that is where a friend, or the trainer, reminding you that the jumps are no higher or more difficult even if the prices are higher can help.

A regulation basketball court is the same size, no matter how many butts are in the seats. Yes?

Bless those who hold schooling shows for they are the unsung, underappreciated people in the industry. Without a wide solid base, the pyramid crumbles.

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It happens at all shows.
More so at rated shows.
Stage fright.
I appreciate the thoughts on how to work thru it but at this point in my life I just accept that freaking out is what I do.

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I feel you.

I’m not sure that this starts with riders’ attitude about having servant-like people to do all.

I read here about pros not allowing their clients to braid because those imperfect braids reflected badly on the trainer’s program.

I have groomed for trainers who would not let their clients do day care themselves because the clients couldn’t be trusted to show up early and late, or clean adequately. They insisted that they feed so that all horses got fed together. Fair enough, as that’s good horsemanship; they never, ever (ever) would trust the ammy to do her own medicating. And that goes with-, as well as stems from, the fact that ammies don’t seem to fill out their own entries anymore. I might be the very last ammy who signs her own form in the “Trainer” slot, regardless of who is feeding my horse at the show, and does all her own medicating.

I have heard pros complain about ammies who can’t/won’t spend the time around the barn to learn to do things like poultice or wrap correctly. And I have heard the ammies or parents complain about the time commitment of doing this kind of extra care.

I read ammies here insist that because they were paying for so much help at a horse show (on top of training board), they were entitled to having their pro be ringside for their round. Everyone else enduring the hold up of that ring could suck it. And I have read here about pros telling their clients to insist upon this wait with the gate person trying to hustle them into the ring.

But I don’t recall many comments that included owners or riders just liking the prestige of having lots of employees. I don’t think that’s a driving source.

My sister and I grew up riding at a facility where, if you didn’t show up in the morning to load your pony on the barn trailer, your pony didn’t go to the horse show. This was in the 80s/90s.

At some point in the 90s, we swapped to another barn (I was an adult by then, driving my little sister around). We showed up in the morning to help load before a local horse show, and received a very cold reception. We weren’t expected or wanted. I figured out pretty quickly that this barn saw kids showing up to load ponies as effectively a baby sitting chore - one that they would rather not take on. It was just easier and quicker for the trainer to load up while the kids went directly to the show.

An understandable position. But one that also reflected a focus more on showing than on taking the opportunity to develop all around horsemanship/responsibility.

To MVP’s point - it’s not always that the riders/clients want servants.

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You know, if I recall, a few years ago the discussion was about how the pipeline to create riders is broken, and that kids really can’t work up to the top from hard work alone anymore. Talk was what is USEF doing to help the best riders rise to the top vs just the wealthiest riders. Now that discussion is pretty much given up (not resolved), I think most accept it isn’t going to be fixed. The upper levels are going to be just the very wealthy. Same now with the hunter derby with their new enrollment fee. USEF obviously hasen’t cared.
Now the discussion is how to get USEF not to run their primary $$$ generating membership off entirely. Clearly things are getting worse, not better. Ironically this discussion seems to be spearheaded almost exclusively by the amateurs themselves! Think about the fact we are basically begging this organization not to run us off. Ridiculous. Their responses basically seem to be “let them eat cake.” Only way this will change is for people to walk with their $.

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How very well written! Thank you.

So, I don’t entirely disagree with Brawley here.

When I watched Derby finals last year I was disappointed with the overall quality of animals. There were maybe 10 - 20 absolutely stunning, athletic animals jumping out of their skin. The rest were underwhelming, particularly in the B section. Quality animals for sure, but nothing that would stand out among the rest of the 3’6"+ hunters at A shows. I would expect Derby Finals to be filled primarily with those standouts. Derbies are supposed to be the best of the 3’6"+ hunters and derby finals is supposed to be the best of those.

So while I wouldn’t have used the word “cheapens” I do agree that the overall accomplishment of winning a derby is lessened if the class is made up of 60% horses/riders that are not going to be competitive. I think it would be nice if the number of people there just for the experience were closer to maybe 20%. And, FWIW I think this is about all classes. I hate that we split junior hunters so many ways you end up competing against 4 other people. I hate that 60% of the kids at Medal Finals are entirely unprepared. I hate that the AO hunters excludes non-owners, a huge and massively competitive group.

However I absolutely do not think the solution is to make it more expensive. Many of those underwhelming horses were ridden by their very wealthy owners. Those people will just pay the fee and move on. Problem most definitely not solved. Unless, of course, the actual problem is just to price people out.

Make the courses harder. Make the $10k derbies a nice introductory class for the green horses, first timers, and bucket listers. As the money goes up make them harder. They do this to some extent, but I mean actually make them hard. Put the derby at Wellington back on the field and use the bank and the hill. Make more of the fences more upright to weed out the ones with the “good” front end instead of “fantastic” front end. Make them jump a short combination to see which ones have the same power from that distance. Make a jump without a groundline (sidenote: did every jump in the hunt field have a groundline? I would think not. I’ve always been confused by the absolute obsession with ground lines and fill in the hunters. We want to find out which horses jump the best so we build every single jump in such a way that covers up many jumping flaws?) And for crying out loud, stop calling it an International Derby. Not that the name of it would fix anything and I know the powers that be spend wayyy too much time discussing the names of things but come on, no one in any other countries has even heard of it.

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Acknowledging that the discussion has moved on beyond ride times, but thought this bit of ride-time scheduling experience might add something. (Took me this long to read the thread! :grin: )

Ride times are magical, IMO as someone who loves having them – but the scheduling and assignment of times has to be done with care to avoid chaos. Especially when more than one division is running at the same time. The scheduler has to avoid time conflicts across rings, and does have to respect the customer’s needs, otherwise the schedule will fall apart on the day.

I’ve done a lot of warm-up stewarding at horse trials and a few dressage shows, as well as riding in them myself. IMO the ride times keep everyone sane, so long as the show can stay fairly close to those times. The event I worked with the most on event-prep and stewarding was almost always running on the time. It was one of the things that made it a premier event in that Area.

In comparison, in another eventing Area that I also showed in, most of the events fell behind, with ride times drifting later & later throughout the day. (That often happens when moving jump judges between divisions isn’t efficient. Or start-box doesn’t stick to the start times.) If a rider had later ride times, the constant question throughout the day was “how far behind are they now?” The rider with multiple horses and, of course, the pros with students, were constantly re-juggling their own actities against the changing time schedule.

Where the events tended to not run on time, it was typical for student riders to not have a trainer available in warm-up, due to the fluctuating conflicts. Whereas in the Area where events typically ran on time, students almost always had their trainer available to school them in warm-up.

A well-scheduled, on-time event means more income for trainers, because schooling students in warm-up is paid time for them. Conversely, trainers who miss meeting their students in warm-up can end up with angry students, because the student can’t wait for the trainer to arrive. They have to ride at their time regardless.

In recognized eventing, anyway. Dressage was often more flexible in my limited dressage stewarding experience. And sometimes in eventing, a steward & td could be nice about a change requested in the warm-up ring, if the schedule allowed. Schooling horse trials tend to be as accommodating as the time schedule allows.

The event that I worked with behind the scenes the most, and that did a sterling job of accurate ride times all day long at event after event, had an experienced organizer who hovered over the ride time scheduling. She knew that the trainers that were her largest sources of entries depended on being able to time-manage between warm-up rings to do their own rides and also school their students.

The scheduler and the organizer also knew from the entry forms which riders were with which trainer. Plus, the organizer was on the phone with trainers to cooperatively figure out what would work best for everyone during the event. Trainers generally expressed a preference to do their own rides first and then school their students. So, in a division such as Novice, the open & horse (mostly pro riders) sections ran first, then the junior & amateur sections.

As all riders in a division like Novice rode the same dressage test and jumped the same course, it wasn’t necessary to strictly schedule riders entered in the same section to ride sequentially. (Division sections: open, horse, junior, amateur.) Adjustments in the order within the division could be made to avoid time conflicts across other rings/divisions running at the same time. And to allow trainers to finish their rides first, then school their students in warm-up.

Of course avoiding time conflicts for busy pros couldn’t always be perfect. The trainers bringing the largest contingents got the most consideration from the scheduler.

However, on just one occasion, this venue had a disastrously instructive ride-time fiasco for the LL cross-country, due to poor scheduling. That time the scheduler was a first-timer for this event, and the organizer was unwell during much of the preparation time and did not oversee the ride time scheduling as she usually did.

As usual for that event, a UL division was still running when the Novice cross-country division was to begin. But this time the scheduler had given the pros almost the same ride time in both divisions, creating untenable time conflicts for all of them. She put the pros at the beginning of the Novice order of go, even though she knew that they would still be riding in the UL at that time. And even though the Novice division was much larger and it would have been easy to give all of the pros later times that didn’t conflict with the UL, and still allow their students to ride even later in the Novice. As had always been done prior to this one time.

That day I was the warm-up steward for the Novice cross-country. As soon as I arrived and took one look at the ride order, and saw all the pro names at the top, I knew this was going bad fast. The first pro riders scheduled to start weren’t in warm-up at all because they were still on their UL division rides. And very few other riders were there either since their times were later, and none were ready to start early. (How no one clued in on this ride time conflict and raised the alarm earlier is a mystery to me.)

Chaos. Start-box didn’t have visibility to warm-up or the other rings, and didn’t know why they didn’t have any horses to start the division. They were anxiously filling up radio time insisting that horses be sent over from warm-up to start.

But as there were none ready to send early, no horses started during the first ride times for the Novice. So then the TD was also on the radio trying to figure out what was happening. It is very difficult to explain over a walkie-talkie to anxious people why the time schedule was rapidly falling apart, when those people are not expecting to hear anything like that at this normally superbly-organized event.

And then when junior/amateur students did start showing up in warm-up and their trainers weren’t there, some were reluctant to warm-up or go to start-box without their trainer. Parents were urging the juniors to begin their warm-up, riders were freezing in anxiety … it was a sad mess. Some riders were self-sufficient, but not all.

We puddled through. Announcements were made for riders to volunteer to warm-up and start earlier than their times, to fill the vacant ride times - but the notice was so short, few were able to do that. I was negotiating on the fly with riders in warm-up on changes in times. (Confiscated the free donuts and traded donuts for some of the changes.) Then more negotiations when the anxious pros finally showed up on antsy green horses, figuring out how to work them into the schedule to do their own rides and still get back in time to school their students. And after all of that, the riders down the order of go ended up having their ride times delayed due to working the pros in ahead of them. So some people were going early, some late, none on their actual ride time. As much as 10 to 20 minutes off their original time, which is a big change in a warm-up routine.

Plus lots of radio time with start-box on when riders were coming over and when they weren’t. And finally when there were no riders left in warm-up, madly ticking through the list to see if we missed anyone. It was my least fun day in warm-up stewarding ever (other than the donut negotiations, which were kind of fun). But everyone survived. And I think they all got their ride in! :grin:

Start-box was creative to try to make up as much lost time as they could. That also figured into the ride time negotiations back in warm-up, as the original time schedule for starters was just nullified. (The original schedule was a start every 2 minutes.)

The Novice division did end up running considerably over its scheduled end time. So that had a domino effect against subsequent divisions running out of that warm-up ring later, and delaying their ride times for the rest of the day. All due to bad ride time scheduling of conflicts across rings. A learning experience, one that was never repeated at that event.

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In the UK, and I suspect everywhere else in Europe, people school at home and compete at shows. Different mindset. Yes, sometimes people like to have a coach to remind them and hold their hand but generally that role falls to a parent or friend. The professionals are too professional to have unprepared clients at a show. That makes set ride times easier.

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I believe, personally, that there are trainers who perpetuate the hand- holding because it is more profitable for them than self-sufficient riders.

For that reason, I do not believe it will go away. It’s trainers who bring the entries and the entry money. Many organizers will cater to them.

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The problem is that these riders/horses may well be nice/capable, but they are not going to be competitive at the finals because they aren’t going to the finals. Not because they are not finals caliber pairs, but the discussion was about the people who can only afford to try one or two derbies a year without the extra enrollment fee. If their goal is not the finals because they can’t afford it, including not being able to afford the enrollment fee or to do enough premier horse shows where they could get qualified, and that somehow that made them cheapen the class. It clearly has nothing to do with their horse’s quality or rider’s ability since you saw plenty of lesser than horses with owners with big enough pocketbooks to actually go to the finals. A lot of shows have stopped offering the international derby entirely, focusing on the national. So that further limits the show options for the ones with less money (to travel farther to a destination show). And this is why his remarks were so tone deaf.

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Just a thought regarding coaches at the ring for their students…

In what other sport would an athlete compete without their coach being right there? Or even warm-up before the game without them?

I’m all about people independently grooming & tacking & getting themselves to the ring and their horse stretched & warmed before their coach/trainer arrives, but I think it a little unfair to throw so much shade & blame industry downfall on riders that want their coach present when they show, and when they prepare to show. If this is a sport, that is absolutely standard practice. I mean, professional NBA players (paid millions per year for excellence in their sport) still rely on their coach throughout the game…?

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Thank you @dags! I wish I could like your post more than once.

The amount of hate for people who want their coach to …well…coach them during the stressful time of a show just makes me scratch my head.

Even having a hunter background I still hate the hurry up and wait theory to hunter shows. But that does not equal (to me) that it is wrong for people to want the support of their coach/trainer/instructor while they are trying to present their best possible ride.

The trainer I had did not tack, did not clean my stall, did not hand walk my horse… he provided me with training and instruction.

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