Amateur Friendly stallion who passes on hunter movement

[gusbabe]

We are looking to breed our mare again. Our mare is from the c holsteiner line on her sire’s side and by Galoubet A on the dams side. She has a great temperament, is 17.2 with lots of bone and competed successfully over 4 foot in three rings. However, she does not have good hunter movement. She is bay out of two bays.

Our priorities for the foal are:

1. Good temperament
2. Hunter movement
3. On the larger side.
4. Not a chestnut
5. Pinto coloring - more of a wish than a necessity

On our short list are:
Lankoenig
Gatsby
Palladio
Sempatico
Navarone
Escapade
Westporte
Ironman
Sir Sinclair
Corlando
Paparazzo
Popeye K
Redwine

Any other suggestions? Of my short list, which do you feel passes on movement the best? Do any of these not pass on good temperaments?
Thanks in advance!

[rocksolid]

We have owned or showed babies by a few of these stallions. Here are my thoughts.
Sir Sinclair: We have shown three of his babies for a client of ours in the hunter breeding. All were tremendous movers and two of are large (boys). Overall their attitudes were great. The boys got pushy as they got older and bigger but they were easily managed. We currently own a Sir Sinclair yearling filly and she is just the sweetest thing in the barn. She has shown this year in the hunter breeding and has acted and done extremely well. She also has the classic hunter movement. All of them are bay.

Corlando: We bred a Corlando baby when he first arrived in the USA. She was bay and had very good movement. As a weanling/yearling she was a little opinionated. If she didn’t want to do something she wouldn’t do it. As she grew up, she lost her attitude and is very amateur friendly. She competed in the jumpers and was doing very well until she got injured and had to be retired.

Redwine: We showed three Redwine babies as yearlings. Two colts and one filly. All were bay or dark bay and ALL were great movers. The two colts were very well behaved but always a little tentative to new things. They never did anything wrong but always needed to think about things first. One is still owned by his amateur owner and he is doing just wonderful. The other got sold and I haven’t seen him in a while. The filly was the most laid back of the three. We eventually purchased her. She got big, at least 16.3. Overall she handled new things like an old pro, but once in a while would remind you she still was a baby. She got sold to a adult amateur and has been doing quite well.

Popeye K: We showed a yearling by him. He was dk bay and I think topped out at 16.2. He was well put together and a very good mover. He was easy to deal with and handled new things very well. For a hunter, his only minor fault was that he didn’t have the prettiest head. No big deal. I believe he got sold to a adult amateur.

If you would you would like any of the names of the horses we showed to look at their records, I will be happy to PM you with them.

Another stallion you might consider is Sir James, owned by Mo Swanson at Rolling Stone Farm. We shoed a 2 year old filly for a client and she has the best hunter movement. Two judges thought she was the best mover they had seen in years.

Good Luck

Jay

[JB]

What does “not good hunter movement” mean to you?

I would not expect a foal from a “sewing machine” mare to move like a winning Regular Working Hunter. The right stallion can tone down some higher knee/hock movement, but is not very likely to make it a hack winner.

[beowulf]

@rocksolid

Another stallion you might consider is Sir James, owned by Mo Swanson at Rolling Stone Farm. We shoed a 2 year old filly for a client and she has the best hunter movement. Two judges thought she was the best mover they had seen in years.

Good Luck

Jay

I have a Sir James yearling and she is very correct and a phenomenal mover. She has a natural step to her canter and is very elastic. I still have to stop and watch her when she plays in her paddock… I see a lot of her dam in her so it didn’t just come from her sire. I could easily see her doing hunters, she has the step/movement for it. I also think she is going to be huge. Her dam is well over 17h and Sir James is very large himself. I think she’s going to top out at 17.3+…

I am curious to see if there are other Sir James horses out there competing. I haven’t seen anything recent from SJ himself.

So I am clear, OP - you want the 17h+ range you have now? What does your mare need improvement on? Only movement? I imagine with that pedigree she may be a bit old fashioned depending on which C-line stallion you have? I love Galoubet A but he did not always make a pretty mover, he made a fantastic jumper though…

@OP

Any other suggestions? Of my short list, which do you feel passes on movement the best? Do any of these not pass on good temperaments?
Thanks in advance!

Personally I am a huge sucker for Landkoenig horses. I think they are beautiful but I am not sure if he would pair well with your mare’s pedigree. I also really like Navarone but some people think he passes on difficult temperaments. I have not had that be the case, IMHO, but every horse has a dam…

Out of your list I think Redwine despite his unfortunate history, is very amateur friendly…

Westporte has some very nice moving horses, very beautiful to my eye too but I don’t have any experience with whether or not they are amateur friendly.

Gatsby would give you nice movement but if your mare is big and has a lot of bone I am not sure I would breed to him. I would definitely breed a refined mare to him. I see him consistently add height and bone. Great temperaments.

Depending on your mare’s pedigree it might be a challenge to find a hunter sire that doesn’t have the same relatives - you can’t throw a stone without hitting a C-line or Galoubet A horse sometimes… Cunningham was my first suggestion until I saw you say your mare’s sire line.

I like Crown Affair and Quite Easy, personally. But not sure if they are appropriate given your mare’s pedigree.

[vxf111]

The Westportes I have seen fall into the camp of “amateur friendly.” He was bred to LOTS OF MARES and that trait seems to hold across the board, from my anecdotal experience. Quiet, mellow, smart, want to please. Don’t require perfect handling/riding all the time. That to me is ammy friendly. N=lots.

I knew 2 Palladios, one of who I had seen from weaning to 3 years old. Same owner, pro owner. I would not have called him an amateur friendly horse. He was actually a PITA and kind of difficult to get under saddle. The other one was also kind of flightly/tough too. Neither was so nice as to be worth it either. N=2. I have seen others that I didn’t think were particularly good hunter movers. N=4-5.

I have seen loads and loads and loads of Popeye Ks. I would call most of them quiet but also a fair number were a smidge quirky. Not awful quirky, but definitely sensitive/opinionated about certain things. To the extent you consider that part of “ammy friendly,” there’s that. But, lots and lots of them went on to become amateur horses so I think that’s a good sign. A little less consistency across the board than with Westporte, I would say. Popeye K also got bred to some lesser quality mares in the beginning of his career and then to every horse that stood still long enough for a while, so there’s that to consider when evaluating the offspring. N=loads and loads.

[gusbabe]

Thank you so much for all this very helpful information! I will definitely look into Sir James
My mare does have a fair amount of bone to her. She is from the Contender line.
I am attaching a video of her with her current baby who is by Banderas. I feel the movement improved with him. Her movement definitely went a bit south since she had her injury so this is not her at her best. She is quite the jumper so must be showing that Galoubet blood.
https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=katelyn%20friesema

[JB]

@beowulf

Gatsby would give you nice movement but if your mare is big and has a lot of bone I am not sure I would breed to him. I would definitely breed a refined mare to him. I see him consistently add height and bone. Great temperaments.

I’ve seen a lot of Gatsby offspring, as adults, out of a wide variety of heavier mares, from bigger “clunkier” old style WB mares, to full and part draft mares,to very big-bodied/boned/muscle Paint mares. They all end up looking a lot more like Gatsby, than the mares, in build. He does the same thing to the refined mares. So essentially he just makes “clones” LOL Lightens up heavy mares, heavies up lighter mares.

I don’t think he’d add any height to this particular mare, as tall as she already is, but I would be prepared for something as tall as her.

[beowulf]

@JB

I’ve seen a lot of Gatsby offspring, as adults, out of a wide variety of heavier mares, from bigger “clunkier” old style WB mares, to full and part draft mares,to very big-bodied/boned/muscle Paint mares. They all end up looking a lot more like Gatsby, than the mares, in build. He does the same thing to the refined mares. So essentially he just makes “clones” LOL Lightens up heavy mares, heavies up lighter mares.

I don’t think he’d add any height to this particular mare, as tall as she already is, but I would be prepared for something as tall as her.

That is true - he does lighten up some heavier mares. He’s not in my area so I only see a few of his offspring, but I will be honest, I don’t prefer heavier horses so my version of what is “too heavy” might be different than yours or OP’s. I think it might depend on how much the mare resembles her damside. Contender is no shrimp either.

[ASBJumper]

I am floored Balta’Czar is not on your list. FABULOUS Hunter sire. A++ temperaments on the vast majority of his foals.
Gatsby also reliably produces ammie-friendly temperaments out of a wide variety of mares.

I’ve known a number of Popeyes, seen LOTS in person at shows, known people who have owned/raised them… I would not recommend him as a reliable producer of ammie-friendly temperaments nor of Hunter type/movement. He can produce very coarse and jumper-y types depending on the mare.

Don’t have enough firsthand experience on any of the others to weigh in.

Good luck!

[Lynnwood]

@ASBJumper

I am floored Balta’Czar is not on your list. FABULOUS Hunter sire. A++ temperaments on the vast majority of his foals.
Gatsby also reliably produces ammie-friendly temperaments out of a wide variety of mares.

I’ve known a number of Popeyes, seen LOTS in person at shows, known people who have owned/raised them… I would not recommend him as a reliable producer of ammie-friendly temperaments nor of Hunter type/movement. He can produce very coarse and jumper-y types depending on the mare.

Don’t have enough firsthand experience on any of the others to weigh in.

Good luck!

I second Balta Czar also check out New Blessing Farms stallion Legaczy another Alla Czar son. Producing big good tempered hunters.

As for Popeye K throwing a few quirky or less modern horses that sounds to me like he’s breeding true to his type. Voltaire was an incredible jumper but was a little hot and spooky . So I’d expect phenom athletes but maybe at least early on ones that need direction from a pro. Most of his pedigree stacked full of great athletes that are perhaps a little less modern then the type coveted today. A great cross on a good tempered mare that needs scope and size.

[JB]

I don’t see Amazing on the list. I am still not sure if any of these stallions, wonderful as they are, will give Hunter movement out of a mare who doesn’t have good Hunter movement herself.

[gusbabe]

I didn’t even think of Balta Czar. He looks lovely. I was sure there were other great options out there. I really appreciate all the suggestions!

[risingstarfarm]

Figaro B has hack winning movement that he reliably passes on to his offspring, along with his very good temperament. His jump is also superb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_fyz7deX7I

[Didi]

I admit to not reading through this thread entirely so this may already be mentioned. Chestnut is a recessive trait. Therefore, it may not show by looking at the stallion. Naturally, if you have a chestnut stallion, chances are great that you will get a chestnut, but you may also get one from a bay, gray, black or any other color as well. Also, your mare may have a recessive chestnut gene. I suggest looking at the get of those stallions you are looking at to see how many chestnuts he has produced. Again, could be a number of factors there, but MAY lessen your chances.

Most importantly - and also as someone above may have already said - breeding for color/chrome should be your LAST priority in choosing a stallion.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[JB]

@Didi

I suggest looking at the get of those stallions you are looking at to see how many chestnuts he has produced. Again, could be a number of factors there, but MAY lessen your chances.

Any horse who produces even one chestnut foal is at least ?e. It just takes one to prove that Whether the stallion has 1 or 100 chestnut foals doesn’t increase or decrease the chances of chestnut. The mare’s Extension status then determines the rest of the odds.

[JB]

Well, I should clarify that a bit. In the case of an Ee horse, 1 or 100 chestnut foals doesn’t make the odds any more or less - it’s up to the mare to finish out the percentages.

The odds DO increase if the horse is ee, since it’s 100% chance of passing that e, instead of just 50%.

And since you can’t prove a negative, having a horse without any chestnut offspring, barring a genetics test proving otherwise, doesn’t mean the horse doesn’t carry e/chestnut. It’s all but guaranteed for a stallion to be EE if he’s got 100 foals and no chestnuts, assuming a decent opportunity to have done so. But 6 foals out of a mare, without chestnut, doesn’t prove she’d EE.

[cherham]

Westporte 1,000 times over. I have known quite a few all with a super friendly ammy temperament no matter the mare. I bred my Holsteiner/TB mare to him a few years ago and now have the most lovely ammy hunter I could have ever dreamed for. And the mare was HOT, typical Holsteiner breeding. But what a jump! My new guy got the best jump ever from the Mom and the super temperament from the Dad. Will be breeding back for sure with this cross.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I read your post, and at first thought Nob Hill (I have a fixation with him… even though I’m not a hunter beeeder. He’s a really lovely stallion with special TB lines).

Then I got to the “not chestnut” part. So Nob Hill probably isn’t it.

Pinto though? I see you have Palladio on the list. Maybe his approved son Pallido Blu is worth checking out? I don’t know much about this breeder and only remember this stallion because I was interested in their Czech warmblood stallions. But it looks like he scored nicely during his stallion testing, has good approvals, and might fit your criteria/wish list. I like his TB dam line too. That might make him smaller and more refined than you want though. I’m not a Pinto person or good at color genetics, but I think he gives you guaranteed Pinto.

http://www.goldenedgesporthorses.com/pallido-blu.html

FWIW though… I still really like Nob Hill. I also have a friend who shows hunters VERY successfully, and has a Westporte yearling as one of her initial attempts at breeding her own, and he seems like a great option too.

[JB]

If you want to avoid chestnut, then choose a stallion who is homozygous for black - EE. He might be black or bay/brown.

If you test your mare and find she’s EE, then you can include any chestnut stallion who fits the rest of the criteria, because she will never, ever produce a chestnut foal.

[Zoey101]

I bred my sewing machine trot mare to Bon Balou and darn if he doesn’t have the flat knee hunter trot! But I was also expecting a chestnut LOL. He came out dark bay like momma. My mare has also been bred to Prototype in Ottawa, standing at Brookson Farm, and he is ammy friendly to a T. Nancy, the owner, let me ride him and he packed me around like an old schoolie. He also tends to throw bling. I will say my filly’s full sister tends to move a bit more like her dam, but to me, the jump is what matters! He might be someone to consider for temperament and size.