American Hybrid Canine Club

[Foxtrot_s]

Those were just examples, no need to make lists.

[MistyBlue]

[QUOTE=S1969;8488758]
Not to beat the dead horse about Bulldo![](s, but do you have any reason to believe that the standards and judges preference has changed for other breeds? Like Pekinese, English Toy Spaniel, Japanese Chin, Boxer, Bullmastiff? I mean, the Pekinese is one of the oldest breeds in the world and it always had a Brachiocephalic head.

I go to dog shows more than most people on this board and I can truly say that I don’t know if Brachiocephalic traits are more pronounced in these breeds than they used to be or if judges reward more for them than “they used to.”

I find it really interesting that so many people know these things, but don’t own the breed(s), judge, or show dogs. I can tell you a lot about my own breed’s standard and judges’ preferences, but I don’t imagine anyone outside my breed (other than judges) would really see much difference in what won 25-30 years ago and what wins now (except grooming trends, which are obvious.)[/QUOTE]

Well, for the brachycephalic list:
Bullmastiff:
1980s
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/IMG_1958_zpsegmcpv0e.jpg)
2015
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/maxresdefault_zpssibdmkay.jpg)

Boxer:
show photos
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/4db94768075675c01973d95019af6951_zpsv8k0rse9.jpg)

Pekingese:
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/2013_Pekingese_Westminster_vs_100_yearsago_zpsrnyirw1p.jpg)
(granted in this photo Ah Chum has been taxidermied)

What’s been done to the English Bulldog is criminal:
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/Old20vs20new20bulldog20skulls_zpsdqzsbykl.jpg)

GSDs have gone all slopey for the show ring, but there are quite a few different lines with specific jobs that didn’t get the slope.

And many breeds haven’t changed much, if at all. The Japanese breeds all stay pretty true to type, although there is a noted difference between Akitas and Akita Inus. The US Akitas are quite a bit bigger and seems they tried to tone down some of their stand-offish-ness and ended up screwing that up into more aggression sadly. Fantastic breed if you can get a traditional one though!

But for facial conformation when it comes to brachycephalic it seems the more extreme, the more desirable. Maybe because it seems cuter or more human or who knows what. Maybe it’s like what we also see in the horse world…if muscles are pinned well in AQHA halter, then extreme bulk as a yearling will win everything and teeny tiny feet make the legs look bigger anyway.
If fancy front end movement on a smooth gaited horse pins well, crank those legs up to their ears and crunch that arse down to crab walk and Ta Da! Lotta pain but big winners!
Gorgeous shaped heads with lovely arched necks in an Arab? Crunch that into a caricature and put it on a noodle-neck and voila! Halter winner!

I’m all for improving breeds. I don’t care if their looks change because of that, an improvement is an improvement. Maybe I’m fuddy-duddy in some ways though; if the improvement in a breed improves it’s purpose or it’s health HURRAY! If all it does is improve it’s ability to win a ribbon or attract buyers and is detrimental to the breed’s health or actual purpose? Not a fan.

I certainly don’t know everything about all breeds or showing, but that doesn’t preclude someone from noticing obvious changes in breeds.

[ASB_Stars]

I do not breed or raise anything, currently, but when I was a kid, we had a Siamese cat. He was actually about a month older than me, and when I was 17, he passed away. We went out to get a new Siamese kitten, and the cats had these weird wedge shaped heads. I asked the breeder why their heads were not more round, like Casper, our original Siamese. I was told, “that cat had an apple head. We do not breed for those- we breed for the more angular lines of these cats.” OK.

My equine breed of choice, the American Saddlebred, was a very different kind of horse 20 years ago. More athletic, more powerful, broader and deeper, generally. Now, the one single requisite that a horse needs to have to stay in the show world is a vertical neckset. As long as a horse has that, pick their division, and they stay in a show barn. If they are a throwback to the actual breed standard, the show world has no use for them.

The professionals in these worlds seem to control the destiny of the animals. If you breed for something that is not easily achieved- i.e. and oddity, almost- and it becomes the style in the ring- cat, dog, or horse, it is worth $$$, and nothing else is.

Sad, but oh so true.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=![](istyBlue;8489978]
Well, for the brachycephalic list:
Bullmastiff:
1980s
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/IMG_1958_zpsegmcpv0e.jpg)
2015
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/maxresdefault_zpssibdmkay.jpg)
[/QUOTE]

Well, the first dog is in America, at Westminster, and the 2nd dog is at Crufts, in Britain. It’s really not comparing apples to apples; in many cases the written breed standards are not the same, and the breeding lines aren’t mixed. My breed is very different from European lines and we don’t intentionally mix them - the “French Brittany” is considered a different breed than the “American Brittany.”

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;8489978]Boxer:
show photos
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/4db94768075675c01973d95019af6951_zpsv8k0rse9.jpg)
[/QUOTE]

This is a fairly significant difference; do we know who the 2nd dog is? Is this a picture of an exemplary dog?

This is a Boxer I know that has done well recently. It doesn’t have the same face as the one you posted (this is December, 2015):

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12373421_868043766648562_5523639953273839667_n.jpg?oh=86cfcc039950544be3b9f7b1221fd05c&oe=57413B45

@MistyBlue;8489978

Pekingese:
[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/MistyBlue5105/2013_Pekingese_Westminster_vs_100_yearsago_zpsrnyirw1p.jpg)
(granted in this photo Ah Chum has been taxidermied)

This also looks significant, but I’m not sure how much is really grooming versus a change in conformation. I’d have to actually put my hands on that muzzle to see how much it has really changed. Maybe a little bit, but I don’t think it’s as drastic as it seems because of the huge difference in grooming.

I don’t disagree that there are breeds that have changed - my issue is with the “experts” that watch Westminster once a year on TV and suddenly know the history of 100+ breeds and what “judges prefer.” Or find two pictures of dogs that look really different and assume that they are exemplary specimens.

I’d like to hear someone that is an expert in GSD show lines to actually tell us how the judging for show dogs have changed and why. In general, we hear people say “I owned a GSD when I was a kid and it didn’t look like that!” but if they didn’t actually show GSDs it really doesn’t mean anything with regard to the standard.

Heck, I owned a “lab” when I was a kid - it was registered and everything. Haha…it was the poorest backyard specimen of a lab I’ve ever seen! But I didn’t know that at the time.

[Foxtrot_s]

Thanks for looking those up Bluey. Our own boxer looks like the one 1969 posted, same colouring etc., except that ours has four polo wraps on. I like it that her nose is longer, like his. But, if he had not had his ears clipped, he wold not have made it that far - at Westminster, I don’t think I have ever seen a Boxer with unclipped ears.

The judges rule by who they pin.

Clipping ears is illegal in BC now.

In Europe it is common to see Dobies and Boxers, etc. with the long tails, and also, the European Boxers we saw were bigger and blockier than what I see here (observation only).

I agree with breeding for function and improvement without causing pain, or health problems.,

But this has gone off tangent.