American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

[Amwrider]

Right now the Morgan Grand National and World Championship Horse Show is being live streamed from Oklahoma City. The show goes on through Saturday and the performances are usually scheduled for 9am CST, 1pm CST and 7pm CST and they run multiple arenas…Coliseum, Performance Arena, Sport Horse 1, and Sport Horse 2, so you can see different events.

The saddle seat classes are all in the Coliseum and Performance arena. Watch and judge for yourselves and see how much expression and carriage matter in placings by the judge. See if any of those winning horses look like they are miserable. Heck, if they were hotnailed on all fours as ASBStars wants you to think, how comfortable would they look in the lineup?

www.mgnlive.com

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8884693]
a symmetrically lame horse would look miserable which would be counterproductive to the “brilliant and eager” look that wins in the show ring.

ASBStars is using a false narrative because she knows that most of this forum is made up of hunter jumper and dressage people. The way to make a horse “hocky” has more to do with the angles at which the horse is trimmed. A horse at a steeper angle and a rolled toe will have a quicker breakover speed for when his hooves leave the ground.

In the old days, they used a lower angle on the hooves which would slow down the breakover and keep the hoof on the ground longer…then the horse would snatch up the hoof quickly to make up for the delayed breakover, but nowadays this doesn’t usually place well because the horse is “trailing his hocks” behind him.

People that don’t understand how much the laws of physics applies to horse shoeing usually make up all kinds of “horror stories” to explain things.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am stating the truth, from things that I have seen over decades. But don’t let my experience cause you to completely go into denial, or, stop you from finding a quaint way of calling me a liar. And, the mere thought that your alleged knowledge of physics is greater than that of anyone else reading this is laughable.

Currently, the groups who are affected by this, but deny that any form of soring occurs in their breeds, are seriously circling the wagons. They have issued videos and treatises, explaining why they need pads and weighted shoes.

The reality is that while ONE pad, and shoes that are handmade- with regulated weights- would be acceptable, they are attempting to slide all of the bands, excessive weight, and multiple pads under the radar, by appearing to be oh-so reasonable.

Breakover, length of toe, toes points, and correct angles, are things I have been addressing in my horses for over 40 years. I’ve been blessed to have learned from some of the best.

Don’t let the smoke and mirrors stop you from posting on the USDA site that these practices are unnecessary. My horses, at least, will thank you!

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8884704]
events.

The saddle seat classes are all in the Coliseum and Performance arena. Watch and judge for yourselves and see how much expression and carriage matter in placings by the judge. See if any of those winning horses look like they are miserable. Heck, if they were hotnailed on all fours as ASBStars wants you to think, how comfortable would they look in the lineup?

www.mgnlive.com[/QUOTE]

If you would be so kind as to find where I stated that all horses are hotnailed on all four of their feet, I would be ever so grateful. Except that I didn’t, and the only way that you folks can make YOUR case, is by making it appear that the rest of us are unreasonable.

So, when you look at the Park classes, please take a look at the length of foot, and shoeing packages that these horses are carrying. Do not be mislead by the fact that they are able to do this while appearing to be bright and happy. Horses are amazing creatures, and what they will tolerate continues to amaze me.

By the way, if you see a Morgan with what appears to be a cut tail- bear in mind that those are illegal within the breed. But, that doesn’t seem to be an issue for the trainers, either…

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8884731]

By the way, if you see a Morgan with what appears to be a cut tail- bear in mind that those are illegal within the breed. But, that doesn’t seem to be an issue for the trainers, either…[/QUOTE]

FALSE

You are allowed to cut the tail, you just cannot maintain it in a spooned set. You can maintain it in a bustle and cutting for a breakover is not allowed.

[Amwrider]

I just went and looked up the rulebook

MO114 (2)
“Judges must penalize unnatural tail carriage, which includes evidence of tail-setting and/or vertical break-over, dead tail and wry tail (wry tail is defined as askew, deformed, distorted or twisted). Judges must severely penalize tails carried vertically with an abrupt break-over (double-vertical).”

You can have a cut tail and maintain it in a bustle but cannot have a tail that is cut and set for a vertical placement and you cannot have a double cut to create a breakover.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8884883]
I just went and looked up the rulebook

MO114 (2)
“Judges must penalize unnatural tail carriage, which includes evidence of tail-setting and/or vertical break-over, dead tail and wry tail (wry tail is defined as askew, deformed, distorted or twisted). Judges must severely penalize tails carried vertically with an abrupt break-over (double-vertical).”

You can have a cut tail and maintain it in a bustle but cannot have a tail that is cut and set for a vertical placement and you cannot have a double cut to create a breakover.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Go ahead an defend it. There isn’t damn reason to cut a horses tail, except for vanity. Take a look at the pictures of those horses from the horse shows, and tell me that the rest of the horse world would call that a natural tail carriage.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8884715]
Actually, I am stating the truth, from things that I have seen over decades. But don’t let my experience cause you to completely go into denial, or, stop you from finding a quaint way of calling me a liar.[/QUOTE]

I too have decades of experience with both Morgans and Saddlebreds as an exhibitor, a trainer, show management, and have been all over the country for shows and shopping. My horses and riders show and have won at the HIGHEST levels possible on the Morgan circuit in several divisions.

If you are finding people that do this then YOU are hanging out with the wrong crowds.

I hang out with the TOP WINNING trainers and have yet to try and buy a horse at a show and bring it home to find out it had been sored in any way. When we try and buy and pull shoes for the first time we find nothing unusual.

And, the mere thought that your alleged knowledge of physics is greater than that of anyone else reading this is laughable.

You know what my educational background is? I am amazed! I didn’t realize you had the supernatural powers of deducing what classes I took 30-35 years ago.

Simply…amazing. I am awed. Really. No…really!

I suggest we invite a farrier to comment on whether or not I am correct in whether physics plays a part in trimming/shoeing for movement.

[ASB_Stars]

As thrilled as I am for you, it doesn’t change the fact that hanging a bunch of foot, pad and shoe on a horse is NOT a healthy thing to do to them. You don’t believe me? Talk to the Blacksmiths at Vet hospitals, and those who do NOT make their living in the show horse world. Your argument isn’t supportable.

Also, please read my quote again. I stated “your alleged knowledge of physics”. I don’t care what your education level is, or where you got it, or when. If you feel that your knowledge of physics exceeds that of everyone else that is going to be reading this, you’ve got several problems. First, you’re underemployed, [edit]

I’ve seen dozens and dozens of shoes come off of show horses who wound up Amish. I’ve seen nasty things that I don’t even like remembering. Those horses were shod by blacksmiths to make them look as wonderful as possible to maximize their value. You want to tell me that those are bad guys?

I’d say that they are just doing what the trainers and the industry require.

And your post proves that you are simply a part of that.

[Amwrider]

[edit]

I am telling people that what you CLAIM to see is not the norm. I am telling people to find out more about it and judge for themselves.

YOU have an agenda. YOU are being manipulative in what you are telling them. YOU are making ambiguous statements such as unilateral soring and hot nailing behind to achieve action … and when I mention that there are better ways to achieve it you back down from it “tell me where I said everyone did it?” no…you did not say everyone did it, but you left it to where people can draw conclusions and “fill in the blanks” for what you omitted…I merely pointed out that if you apply PHYSICS you can achieve the same end without causing the horse pain.

YOU refuse to see any other side than what you want to portray and you want to portray the blackest, vilest picture possible and paint everybody in the industry with the same black paintbrush.

[edit]

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8884894]
Yep. Go ahead an defend it. There isn’t damn reason to cut a horses tail, except for vanity. Take a look at the pictures of those horses from the horse shows, and tell me that the rest of the horse world would call that a natural tail carriage.[/QUOTE]

Put your money where your mouth is…

Here are pictures of horses from my barn. Tell me which have cut tails and which wear bustles. I want you to tell me which are “unnatural” tails. These are all Morgans…

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1875365397796&set=a.1694964967898.2091568.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203998927387446&set=a.1704353402603.2092340.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4466877823987&set=a.4466877223972.2167520.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203998927387446&set=a.1704353402603.2092340.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1855858230129&set=a.1332820874522.2049132.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4914147605452&set=a.1085474291012.2015493.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2962502375541&set=a.2962490655248.2136409.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4332926915298&set=a.1646260470316.2087024.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1345483831088&set=a.1328708771722.2048787.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4471913709881&set=a.1694964967898.2091568.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1242994988931&set=a.1242991508844.2038377.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1855874870545&set=a.1694970408034.2091571.1051037955&type=3&theater

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8884989]
[edit]
I am telling people that what you CLAIM to see is not the norm. I am telling people to find out more about it and judge for themselves.

YOU have an agenda. YOU are being manipulative in what you are telling them. YOU are making ambiguous statements such as unilateral soring and hot nailing behind to achieve action … and when I mention that there are better ways to achieve it you back down from it “tell me where I said everyone did it?” no…you did not say everyone did it, but you left it to where people can draw conclusions and “fill in the blanks” for what you omitted…I merely pointed out that if you apply PHYSICS you can achieve the same end without causing the horse pain.

YOU refuse to see any other side than what you want to portray and you want to portray the blackest, vilest picture possible and paint everybody in the industry with the same black paintbrush.

[edit][/QUOTE]

[edit]

I’ve been watching all of this for a very long time, and participating in it, as well. I’ve simply realized that it needs to stop. However, I do not derive a living from it- you do. That certainly alters the prism that you are seeing this through, from mine.

I didn’t back down one inch. I have seen what I have seen. Is it on every horse? Nope. But your post would make one believe that is exactly what I said. Not everyone in the industry does crappy things to horses. But, the fact that the tools are available to do crappy things to horses is something that I feel needs to go.

People who try and make things black and white don’t have a great argument. You want to believe that I am out to get everyone. Wrong. I believe in these horses, and that the good ones go light and that we simply need to level the playing field. There would be adjustments, sure. But the horses are the ones who will benefit from this. And frankly, they are the only ones I care about.

I do this because I can. I am out of the end of the industry where politics could cause me difficulty, but I still know where the bodies are buried. That, unfortunately, is making me unpopular in the ASB show world, as I knew it would.

Sometimes, you need to do something because it is the RIGHT thing, not the convenient thing, or the one that is easy.

I DO have and agenda. You got ME! My agenda is to make sure that I try and make this a better world for these horses, while I’m here. And wearing a bunch of foot and pads and ridiculously weighted shoes doesn’t do that for them.

[Amwrider]

There are other reasons for cutting tails other than vanity, and the photos you depict are photos of really, really bad and ill cared for tails. The majority of tails are not what you depict.

I posted several photos above of morgans that have been in my barn. I challenge you to find an ugly tail in the bunch and in most cases you wouldn’t even know which ones have been cut.

Of all the tails I posted in the links above, only ONE of those horses wears a bustle before we go into shows. The horses depicted include:

Two National Championships
Two Reserve National Championships
Five Top 10 at the World Championships

So yes…we are talking some pretty damn good show horses that compete at the top of the game. Pick the fake tails and pick the bustled tail. Tell me which of these horses have ugly tails.

[ASB_Stars]

The photos on this page:

https://www.facebook.com/HALTequinetailalteration/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

were ALL taken at horse shows in Kentucky- some at Lexington Jr. League- one of the three top ASB shows in the country- and other shows in the Mecca of the ASB world. AT THE HORSE SHOWS! These tails were considered to be acceptable. Why? Because this is what happens when you do something crappy to a horse. You still have this wonderful animal attached to a really, really ugly nightmare.

If your horses have nice tails, GOOD for you! But in Kentucky, where the competition is deepest for the ASBs- these tails were attached to these poor horses. It’s pretty awful when this is considered acceptable.

[pattnic]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885052]
Here are pictures of horses from my barn. Tell me which have cut tails and which wear bustles. I want you to tell me which are “unnatural” tails. These are all Morgans…[/QUOTE]

You know, I’ve typically seen that a happy Morgan when working/showing/playing will travel with their tail raised, whether or not it’s been bustled or cut. So why bustle or cut at all? (Really not trying to pick a fight here… it’s something that I’ve never understood, as I really don’t think you can tell a difference!).

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8885118]
The photos on this page:

https://www.facebook.com/HALTequinetailalteration/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

were ALL taken at horse shows in Kentucky- some at Lexington Jr. League- one of the three top ASB shows in the country- and other shows in the Mecca of the ASB world. AT THE HORSE SHOWS! These tails were considered to be acceptable. Why? Because this is what happens when you do something crappy to a horse. You still have this wonderful animal attached to a really, really ugly nightmare.

If your horses have nice tails, GOOD for you! But in Kentucky, where the competition is deepest for the ASBs- these tails were attached to these poor horses. It’s pretty awful when this is considered acceptable.[/QUOTE]

I am not talking Saddlebreds. Look at the top of this page…MORGAN. Nobody brought up tails until YOU brought up MORGAN TAILS when I posted the link to the show and claimed that it was illegal to alter a MORGAN tail.

So since YOU are the one that brought up altering Morgan tails, the challenge still stands. Not all of the horses I posted have cut tails and not all of them wear bustles when we go to shows.

So let’s keep this MORGAN focused.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=pattnic;8885142]
You know, I’ve typically seen that a happy Morgan when working/showing/playing will travel with their tail raised, whether or not it’s been bustled or cut. So why bustle or cut at all? (Really not trying to pick a fight here… it’s something that I’ve never understood, as I really don’t think you can tell a difference!).[/QUOTE]

because there is also a safety issue with tails. Horses that spend a lot of time in harness can easily flip a tail over the lines/reins and clamp down on the line to where the driver will have trouble steering or stopping and may even elicit a bucking fit when the driver tries to dislodge the line. This is why the process of tail docking was developed a few centuries ago.

If you simply cut the muscles used to “clamp” the tail, you can eliminate this potential hazard. The horse still has full use of the tail but not the same amount of power to the tail.

You see this mostly with breeds that show in pleasure driving. Carriage driving isn’t as much of a problem as carriage typically sits the driver higher than the rump of the horse.

Most Saddlebreds and Morgans are started in harness before they are ever ridden, and if the horse drives, “jogging” in harness is usually a major part of their training program to keep them fit without putting a rider on them every time.

When people realized they could nick the muscles instead of docking the tailbone, they realized it had the advantage of giving the tail MORE mobility.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885194]
because there is also a safety issue with tails. Horses that spend a lot of time in harness can easily flip a tail over the lines/reins and clamp down on the line to where the driver will have trouble steering or stopping and may even elicit a bucking fit when the driver tries to dislodge the line. This is why the process of tail docking was developed a few centuries ago.

If you simply cut the muscles used to “clamp” the tail, you can eliminate this potential hazard. The horse still has full use of the tail but not the same amount of power to the tail.

You see this mostly with breeds that show in pleasure driving. Carriage driving isn’t as much of a problem as carriage typically sits the driver higher than the rump of the horse.

Most Saddlebreds and Morgans are started in harness before they are ever ridden, and if the horse drives, “jogging” in harness is usually a major part of their training program to keep them fit without putting a rider on them every time.

When people realized they could nick the muscles instead of docking the tailbone, they realized it had the advantage of giving the tail MORE mobility.[/QUOTE]

Somehow, the Standardbred people, and those competing in any kind of driving, including Combined Driving, and all of the driving horses in Europe, manage to get by without having to cut tails. Imagine!

And yet, this is the sad refrain. Sad for the horses.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885174]
I am not talking Saddlebreds. Look at the top of this page…MORGAN. Nobody brought up tails until YOU brought up MORGAN TAILS when I posted the link to the show and claimed that it was illegal to alter a MORGAN tail.

So since YOU are the one that brought up altering Morgan tails, the challenge still stands. Not all of the horses I posted have cut tails and not all of them wear bustles when we go to shows.

So let’s keep this MORGAN focused.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Because only Morgan count in either issue- the USDA one, or about tails. The fact is that both take in more breeds, and therefore, more horses are affected.

And no, I am not going to take up your challenge, nor will I post pictures of my horses tails, and ask you to do the same.

It all just needs to stop.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885194]
When people realized they could nick the muscles instead of docking the tailbone, they realized it had the advantage of giving the tail MORE mobility.[/QUOTE]

Nicking and docking have been trading places as current fashion for over 250 years not necessarily one before the other.

[Amwrider]

What! I never asked you to post any photos of yours.

You are afraid to take my challenge and get it wrong…I see how you work. [edit] You won’t put your money where your mouth is.