American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885213]
What! I never asked you to post any photos of yours.

You are afraid to take my challenge and get it wrong…I see how you work. Coward. You won’t put your money where your mouth is.[/QUOTE]

Actually. I’ve spent quite a bit of money over the years by running my mouth. There is no correlation in this situation.

And no, you don’t get to make all of the rules in the sandbox. And I if choose not to play, well, that’s how it is. However, the fact that you summarily rejected “tit for tat” is entertaining.

Let’s focus on the issues at hand. Your title says that the Morgan people are against the USDA amendment. Since then, they’ve been joined by ASHA, and the hackney pony people.

So there, now we’re up to date!

Impassioned debate is fine, but let’s please avoid getting into insults directed at each other. We’ve edited some posts.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8885224]
Actually. I’ve spent quite a bit of money over the years by running my mouth. There is no correlation in this situation.

And no, you don’t get to make all of the rules in the sandbox. And I if choose not to play, well, that’s how it is. However, the fact that you summarily rejected “tit for tat” is entertaining.

Let’s focus on the issues at hand. Your title says that the Morgan people are against the USDA amendment. Since then, they’ve been joined by ASHA, and the hackney pony people.

So there, now we’re up to date![/QUOTE]

They have also been joined by the Arabian Horse Association, the United Professional Horsemen’s Association, the USEF and the American Horse Council.

You are the self-proclaimed queen of disfigured tails so I want you to tell me which of my horses’ tails you consider disfigured. I gave you ten or so different horses to choose from but you “choose not to play” because you know you cannot win my test.

Again. I urge people to watch the Morgan Grand National and World Championship Horse Show at www.mgnlive.com through Saturday evening.

Sessions are at 9am, 1pm and 7pm CENTRAL time and are in multiple arenas. There are saddle seat classes, hunter pleasure classes, western classes, reining, dressage, trail, jumping, pleasure driving, carriage driving and more.

You can see how lightly the horses are shod…they are not “stacks” or big packages like the walking horses wear. They do not look labored, they do not look sore, they look happy and expressive, and their tails…a lot are cut (and fake tails are prohibited in Morgans) so with the tails “what you see is what you get” after they have been cut.

The USDA proposed changes will be detrimental to many, many breeds and the verbiage was deliberately left vague so that they can apply it as the mood moves them. Today it may be Walking horses, tomorrow it may be the saddlebreds and Morgans, next week it could be hunters and dressage horses.

If anyone has any questions about the Morgan show, please let me know. I will be happy to answer.

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885194]
because there is also a safety issue with tails. Horses that spend a lot of time in harness can easily flip a tail over the lines/reins and clamp down on the line to where the driver will have trouble steering or stopping and may even elicit a bucking fit when the driver tries to dislodge the line. This is why the process of tail docking was developed a few centuries ago.

If you simply cut the muscles used to “clamp” the tail, you can eliminate this potential hazard. The horse still has full use of the tail but not the same amount of power to the tail.

You see this mostly with breeds that show in pleasure driving. Carriage driving isn’t as much of a problem as carriage typically sits the driver higher than the rump of the horse.

Most Saddlebreds and Morgans are started in harness before they are ever ridden, and if the horse drives, “jogging” in harness is usually a major part of their training program to keep them fit without putting a rider on them every time.

When people realized they could nick the muscles instead of docking the tailbone, they realized it had the advantage of giving the tail MORE mobility.[/QUOTE]

I just watched a 3 year old pleasure driving colt get a tail over the line in the show ring. Good thing the 3 year old couldn’t clamp down with his tail.

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885697]
Again. I urge people to watch the Morgan Grand National and World Championship Horse Show at www.mgnlive.com through Saturday evening.

I will.

Sessions are at 9am, 1pm and 7pm CENTRAL time and are in multiple arenas. There are saddle seat classes, hunter pleasure classes, western classes, reining, dressage, trail, jumping, pleasure driving, carriage driving and more.

You can see how lightly the horses are shod…they are not “stacks” or big packages like the walking horses wear. They do not look labored, they do not look sore, they look happy and expressive, and their tails…a lot are cut (and fake tails are prohibited in Morgans) so with the tails “what you see is what you get” after they have been cut.

If this is the case then what is your concern? The proposed regulations only apply to “non-therapeutic” use of artificial devices.

The USDA proposed changes will be detrimental to many, many breeds and the verbiage was deliberately left vague so that they can apply it as the mood moves them. Today it may be Walking horses, tomorrow it may be the saddlebreds and Morgans, next week it could be hunters and dressage horses.

Pastor Niemöller might be offended by the use, or misuse, of his famous poem in these circumstances.

But, passing that for the moment, the language is NOT left “vague” so that some cabal of conspirators can come and “gut” the show world of any breed. It it follows the language of the HPA. It follows 40+ years of experience with the HPA and the Walker/Racker world and the ingenuity of the vet, farrier, and trainer cadres that have used an increasingly sophisticated arsenal of soring techniques. That is perfectly OK under Federal Law.

Walkers have been regulated since the first HPA in 1973. Since then how many non-Walking/Racking horse, or breeds derived from them, shows has USDA-APHIS ever attended? I’m aware of one. Are you aware of more? If in the previous almost 50 years the emphasis has been on Walking/Racking horses, where it belongs. What evidence do you have that leads you to believe that suddenly they will start spending a very limited enforcement budget to take on other breeds with little or no substantive history of soring? This claim has been made many times in discussing these proposed Rules. Based upon my experience (being involved in the “anti-soring wars” since about 1991) it has never happened. Why now?

If anyone has any questions about the Morgan show, please let me know. I will be happy to answer.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read the HPA, the existing Regulations, the Proposed Regulations, and am a trained DQP under the existing Regulations. The opposition to the proposed Regulations just baffles me. I can’t believe the people making such noise about them have ever even READ them. Now reading Federal Regulations is almost as bad as reading an insurance policy, but it’s essential to read both if you want to KNOW what is in both, vice what somebody SAYS is in both.

To give full disclosure, I consider the use of ANY action device to be a mark of training incompetence by the user. Physically altering horses for cosmetic purposes is something I don’t understand. I don’t necessarily think it should be outlawed if there is no substantial detriment to the horse; every time we put a lead shank on a horse we “alter” it to some extent. Of course remove the lead shank and the “alteration” is done. Not so with surgical procedures. Still, unless there is credible evidence of physical detriment to the horse it’s a big “so what?” for me.

While bangles, beads, stretchies, and the like are he province of the incompetent trainer it’s my considered opinion that stacks and heavy shoes are not. These are the province of at least the abuser, and maybe the purveyor of cruelty. I understand just how they work, why they work, and consequences of their use. My understanding of those things leads me to my rejection of them. It also leads me to support their elimination by law.

I have no objection to honest and open discussion of these things. I do have objections to false claims and misstatements and misinterpretations of things. I’m not neutral on most of this and I state that in the interests of honest discussion.

G.

I am capable of reading the Federal Register as complex as it is. I spent 15 years in a field in which I had to know a specific section of the Federal Register inside out and upside-down and backwards and I had to teach and explain regulations…sometimes even to State Representative offices that had trouble with the regulations for the field I was in. Federal COBRA Insurance law is not for the faint of heart.

The verbiage is too loose, and while everybody is entitled to their opinions, people are usually afraid of what they don’t understand. The trotting breeds do not sore their horses for performance so they should not be included in this legislation.

Lawyers at the American Saddlebred Association, the American Morgan Horse Association, the Arabian Horse Association, the United Professional Horsemen’s Association, the United States Equestrian Federation and the American Horse Council have all reviewed the proposed changes and take issues with the proposed regulations being “arbitrary and capricious” and on top of that, they have failed to meet the requirements of Executive Orders 12866 and 13563 and because they fail to meet those requirements the entire proposal needs to be scrapped.

These associations and their lawyers are exceptionally well versed in the legalities of equine legislations and are better able than most people and most other lawyers to spot these types of issues.

Also to consider is that the HSUS is behind much of the proposal. The main architect of the legislative proposal is Dr. Rachal Cezar. She and Marty Irby from HSUS are in regular communication with each other and emails have turned up in FOIA requests in which Irby states Dr. Cezar is his “inside contact” in the USDA.

Also in those FOIA requests are discussions on how much they really hate horses and need to be careful about what they say to horse people.

The HSUS is trying to chip away at horse competition…one industry at a time, and they will not hesitate to lie about industries in order to advance their agenda…Heck, just look at the RICO suit that HSUS has to pay Feld Entertainment. I don’t trust HSUS and neither should you.

This is the USEF response to the proposed regulations. It is 18 pages so I will post a link rather than copy and paste the entire document.

http://usefnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/00/00/00/16/61/usef+comment+final.pdf

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8885766]

To give full disclosure, I consider the use of ANY action device to be a mark of training incompetence by the user. Physically altering horses for cosmetic purposes is something I don’t understand. I don’t necessarily think it should be outlawed if there is no substantial detriment to the horse; every time we put a lead shank on a horse we “alter” it to some extent. Of course remove the lead shank and the “alteration” is done. Not so with surgical procedures. Still, unless there is credible evidence of physical detriment to the horse it’s a big “so what?” for me.

While bangles, beads, stretchies, and the like are he province of the incompetent trainer it’s my considered opinion that stacks and heavy shoes are not. These are the province of at least the abuser, and maybe the purveyor of cruelty. I understand just how they work, why they work, and consequences of their use. My understanding of those things leads me to my rejection of them. It also leads me to support their elimination by law.

G.[/QUOTE]

As a DQP you see the stacks that the TWH industry uses. The Morgans, Saddlebreds and Arabians etc. do not go to the extreme that the TWH does. Our trotting breeds prize bold moving, expressive horses that do not LABOR in their gaits, so excessive weights are counterproductive.

You would paint everybody with the same broad brush of “cruelty” because they use a pad or two on their horse and fill the shoe with soft silicone or Magic Cushion? Because they use a shoe that is somewhat heavier than a keg shoe? I show on the Morgan circuit and none of my horses have shown with more than 18 ounces on their front hooves…that includes shoe, pad, wedge, band (if used) and lead (if used). This is a far cry from the pounds that the TWH wears on its foot…yet you paint us with the same brush as you paint them with?

Let me tell you a secret…you cannot “create” motion on a horse that doesn’t already have motion. Right now the only horse in my barn wearing pads is my 25 year old Arabian lesson horse. He was a Western trail horse and a flat mover. He is currently in a 3 degree wedge pad between his hoof and his shoe and it is packed with magic cushion. He is thin soled, doesn’t like to grow heel, and I use this “package” on him because it is what he needs to move comfortably.

Do you know how much motion his “package” gave him? It gives him NO motion because it wasn’t there to begin with.

I find it sad that you would automatically rule out tools such as chains and rubber developers as “tools of the incompetent.” They have many benefits, one of which is to help cadence. They were even used on the track for trotters to help with cadence and conditioning. There was an article in a major Dressage magazine several years back where use of chains was discussed as helping improve cadence in some dressage horses.

A rubber developer or a heavier chain helps to build muscle through resistance training. We do not go out and seek to cause our horses pain. These are training tools for our equine athletes and are similar to a human athlete spending time in the weight room lifting weights.

The Auburn Study which was done on TWH has shown through examining thermal changes in the leg, show that chains 6 ounces and less cause no significant thermal changes (based on inflammation causing heat). The trotting breeds also do NOT show wearing chains. Chains are usually put on only for exercise and are not used daily. Often the horse is only warmed up in the chains and then the chains are removed for the remainder of the workout.

It is a shame that some people are automatically so close-minded that they refuse to see that there MAY be a benefit to tools when used correctly and judiciously.

As a DQP I am sure you have seen some horrific things done to horses. This is abuse of the tools, but you need to realize that tools can be used properly and improperly.

A steak knife is a tool to cut meat, but someone can mis-use it as a weapon. A car is a tool, but they can be an instrument of death when mis-used or mis-handled.

The same thing can go for a riding crop or a set of spurs, or bits. They have their places in riding as tools, yet there are people that abuse them. Would you propose legislation to eliminate all crops, spurs, bits just to get rid of the “bad people” in the business?

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885844]
I am capable of reading the Federal Register as complex as it is. I spent 15 years in a field in which I had to know a specific section of the Federal Register inside out and upside-down and backwards and I had to teach and explain regulations…sometimes even to State Representative offices that had trouble with the regulations for the field I was in. Federal COBRA Insurance law is not for the faint of heart.

OK, but did you read THESE particular rules?

The verbiage is too loose, and while everybody is entitled to their opinions, people are usually afraid of what they don’t understand. The trotting breeds do not sore their horses for performance so they should not be included in this legislation.

The traditional methods of “soring” (chemicals, mechanical devices in a stack, etc.) do not work on diagonally gaited horses. While my experience is mostly with laterally gaited horses I would be skeptical of a universal statement that “trotters do not sore their horses.”

Lawyers at the American Saddlebred Association, the American Morgan Horse Association, the Arabian Horse Association, the United Professional Horsemen’s Association, the United States Equestrian Federation and the American Horse Council have all reviewed the proposed changes and take issues with the proposed regulations being “arbitrary and capricious” and on top of that, they have failed to meet the requirements of Executive Orders 12866 and 13563 and because they fail to meet those requirements the entire proposal needs to be scrapped.

I presume that these lawyers are paid by these organizations and, therefore, are there to advocate for them. That does not mean the lawyers are correct, only that they are earning their pay.

These associations and their lawyers are exceptionally well versed in the legalities of equine legislations and are better able than most people and most other lawyers to spot these types of issues.

To which I say “balderdash.” This is the logical fallacy of “appeal to authority.”

Also to consider is that the HSUS is behind much of the proposal. The main architect of the legislative proposal is Dr. Rachal Cezar. She and Marty Irby from HSUS are in regular communication with each other and emails have turned up in FOIA requests in which Irby states Dr. Cezar is his “inside contact” in the USDA.

I feel about HSUS the way the Devil feels about Holy Water. But if HSUS is trying to use these rules as a “lever” to alter some aspect of showing they need to hire better lawyers 'cause this doesn’t do the job.

Also in those FOIA requests are discussions on how much they really hate horses and need to be careful about what they say to horse people.

The HSUS is trying to chip away at horse competition…one industry at a time, and they will not hesitate to lie about industries in order to advance their agenda…Heck, just look at the RICO suit that HSUS has to pay Feld Entertainment. I don’t trust HSUS and neither should you.[/QUOTE]

The rules are the rules. They do not do what you claim they do. They do not do what the lawyers hired to prevent their implementation say they do. They do give a stronger hand to the enforcement arm of USDA. We have lots of evidence that this is a Good Thing. But there is a real check on just how much USDA-APHIS can do. For extra credit, what is that check?

I’m satisfied, based upon my reading of the proposed Regulations and my experience in the equine industry that said Regulations are fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

G.

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885888]
As a DQP you see the stacks that the TWH industry uses. The Morgans, Saddlebreds and Arabians etc. do not go to the extreme that the TWH does. Our trotting breeds prize bold moving, expressive horses that do not LABOR in their gaits, so excessive weights are counterproductive.

You would paint everybody with the same broad brush of “cruelty” because they use a pad or two on their horse and fill the shoe with soft silicone or Magic Cushion? Because they use a shoe that is somewhat heavier than a keg shoe? I show on the Morgan circuit and none of my horses have shown with more than 18 ounces on their front hooves…that includes shoe, pad, wedge, band (if used) and lead (if used). This is a far cry from the pounds that the TWH wears on its foot…yet you paint us with the same brush as you paint them with?

Let me tell you a secret…you cannot “create” motion on a horse that doesn’t already have motion. Right now the only horse in my barn wearing pads is my 25 year old Arabian lesson horse. He was a Western trail horse and a flat mover. He is currently in a 3 degree wedge pad between his hoof and his shoe and it is packed with magic cushion. He is thin soled, doesn’t like to grow heel, and I use this “package” on him because it is what he needs to move comfortably.

Do you know how much motion his “package” gave him? It gives him NO motion because it wasn’t there to begin with.

I find it sad that you would automatically rule out tools such as chains and rubber developers as “tools of the incompetent.” They have many benefits, one of which is to help cadence. They were even used on the track for trotters to help with cadence and conditioning. There was an article in a major Dressage magazine several years back where use of chains was discussed as helping improve cadence in some dressage horses.

A rubber developer or a heavier chain helps to build muscle through resistance training. We do not go out and seek to cause our horses pain. These are training tools for our equine athletes and are similar to a human athlete spending time in the weight room lifting weights.

The Auburn Study which was done on TWH has shown through examining thermal changes in the leg, show that chains 6 ounces and less cause no significant thermal changes (based on inflammation causing heat). The trotting breeds also do NOT show wearing chains. Chains are usually put on only for exercise and are not used daily. Often the horse is only warmed up in the chains and then the chains are removed for the remainder of the workout.

It is a shame that some people are automatically so close-minded that they refuse to see that there MAY be a benefit to tools when used correctly and judiciously.

As a DQP I am sure you have seen some horrific things done to horses. This is abuse of the tools, but you need to realize that tools can be used properly and improperly.

A steak knife is a tool to cut meat, but someone can mis-use it as a weapon. A car is a tool, but they can be an instrument of death when mis-used or mis-handled.

The same thing can go for a riding crop or a set of spurs, or bits. They have their places in riding as tools, yet there are people that abuse them. Would you propose legislation to eliminate all crops, spurs, bits just to get rid of the “bad people” in the business?[/QUOTE]

You have just recapitulated the entire defense of soring that has been put forward by the Walking Horse industry over 40 years.

But I’ll only comment on one thing: the Auburn Study. This is the Gold Standard of the Soring Defense Crowd. I’ve read the Auburn Study and it does say that. But that was the only question asked. It didn’t study anything else, particularly the combination of devices that are commonly used. In that it was designed by it’s sponsors, the Walking horse show interests, to exonerate one practice. And even in that one has to ask whether or not the methodology was influenced by the dollars of those paying for the study.

Put another way, would Dr. Clayton come to the same conclusion given the same parameters?

You find it “sad” that I find the use of devices disreputable. I find it sad that people find the use devices that have a significant probability of equine injury to be admirable.

G.

The issue, G, is that they do not want anyone telling them that they cannot use multiple pads, and weight shoe that they desire, and bands to hold the whole mess on. The smoke and mirrors about how “we don’t sore our horses because they trot” is nothing more than that; smoke and mirrors.

If the USDA gives in one inch from their current position, nothing will change. The ASHA is sending out emails to it’s members begging for money for the legal fund, to continue this.

Sad, and yes, sickening.

I also have read the Auburn Study and have it saved. The Auburn Study crucified the TWH big lick people so I don’t understand how you can say that because they paid for it, it is garbage used to exonorate them.

Examaple 1: Phase VII. Simultaneous Use of Chemical and Chains for Soring Horses
The objectives of this study were to determine the effects on forefeet of horses of detergent, mustard oil and chains, before and after exercise for a duration of two weeks and to determine if pressure readings from the forefeet of sored horses will correlate with the thermographic findings. Three horses (Nos. 3, 5 and 6) were exercised several days in a normal fashion and the animals were monitored to establish pre-treatment physical condition of the forefeet. Data were obtained by pressure testing, thermography and by taking rectal temperature. Liquid detergent was liberally applied to the pasterns of the forefeet and they were then wrapped in plastic and cloth bandages. The next day the bandages were removed and # 3 was exercised 15 minutes with chains on both feet, # 5 with a chain on the right forefoot and # 6 with a chain on the left forefoot. Ten ounce chains were used. The next day 18 drops of oil of mustard were applied to each pastern after the horses had been exercised in chains as previously described. Plastic and cloth wraps were applied and left on overnight. Wraps were removed the next day and the: horses exercised in •chains for 15 minutes each day (except weekends) for 8 more days. The horses were then exercised in a normal manner 5 times during a 10 day recovery period. Results of this study showed that the combination of detergent, chains, and mustard oil caused the clinical signs of a sored horse described by Nelson (1975). Horse # 3 (chains on both
legs) and # 6 (chain on left leg) had some bleeding in the pasterns 8 days after detergent was applied. Horse # 5 did not bleed but had swollen and scabby pasterns. Thermal patterns of the foot were altered by the treatment with chemicals and mechanical devices but since detergent and mustard oil were applied to both pasterns of the forefeet of all three animals, and in 2 horses chains were used either on left or right foot, unchained feet were only sored chemically, were similar to the one with both chemical and chains. Thus inflamed area with or without chains showed similar results on thermography. Rectal temperatures were slightly higher during the period of treatment than for periods of non—treatment. The combined use of detergent, chains and mustard oil on the pasterns of horses causes lesions and tissue damage visible to the naked eye. They also cause alterations of the horse’s behavior that are predictable. The pressure device is consistent in charting trauma caused to the feet of Tennessee Walking Horses. There is a wide margin between the pressures 'that an unsored horse will tolerate compared to those a sored horse can endure.

Example 2:Phase X. Use of 8 and 10 Ounce Chains on Scarred Horses
This study consists of two parts. In the first part of the experiment two horses were scarred using chain and mustard oil. . Along with these, two scarred horses were bought. The second part of the study consisted of using 8 and 10 ounce chains and 14 ounce rollers on the scarred horses to evaluate their effect on the scar. –
Part 1 of Phase X, Scarring Processes: Two horses were used to produce scars using 16 or 14 oz. chains with clinical soring described previously. It took an unpleasant 2 months of detergent, mustard oil and chain use to produce minimal scarring of two horses. Bleeding of pasterns first occurred in about 7 to 8 days, while
exercising in chains. Evidence of inflammation of the pasterns was noted on thermovision the day after presoring and chain use, particularly after exercise. The thermal pattern became more diffuse and abnormal as the study proceeded. Drop in pressure readings occurred with continued use of chemicals and chains. The animals displayed many signs of discomfort and distress during the use of chemicals and chains. Some were stiffness, trotting instead of gaiting, lying down in the stall, reluctance to move, vagueness as to surroundings, bearing more weight on hind feet, stumbling, falling, hanging the head, wobbling, altered facial expression, and a peculiar stance when standing. Although the horses were seldom exercised in chains more than 15 minutes per day and were not exercised each day because of rain, thrown shoes and weekends, it was apparent that 14 and 16 oz. chains inflict more trauma than 10 oz, chains. Scars can be produced on pasterns with chemicals and chains but despite 2 months of efforts to do so they were small scars and barely discernible in one horse. Thermograms and pressure readings readily distinguish a normal, unsore horse from one being treated with chemicals on the pastern and exercised in chains.


and you say that this is supposed to be the “Gold Standard of the soring defense crowd?” That it was “designed by its sponsors” for exonoration?

That is laughable.

And as far as equine injury…

Some of the horses I have trained have had pads, some have worn bands especially in our wet Florida summers when the ground tends to stay mushy and hooves gets softer. The bands help keep shoes on so the nails don’t pull out of moist hooves as easily. Some of my horses have worn rim pads. Some have been flat shod with a 16 ounce shoe for our classic pleasure classes.

I don’t run a large facility, the most I have had has only been 36. I turned professional in 1998.

I have had the following injuries:

zero founders
two navicular (and they were keg-shod lesson horses without pads)
zero suspensory tears
one suspensory bruise (horse pulled bucket off wall at show and got tangled in it)
one superficial flexor tear (21 year old lesson horse barefoot in pasture)
one carpal hygroma (from a kick to the knee in turnout)
zero quarter cracks
three cases of DSLD (which is hereditary)
one supra-scapular nerve pinch {from a spooking incident in the washrack}

What I do see a lot of are deep sulcus thrush during our very wet Florida summers, and occasionally stifle injuries if the footing in the arena gets too soft and deep. The horses work better with a firmer and shallower footing.

Now, before I started working with Morgans and saddlebreds, I spent 15 years with hunter/jumpers. We had lots of injuries there. With the saddle seat horses, not so much. I attribute it to the fact that we can customize our horses shoeing to what makes the horse comfortable for his or her performance.

The use of pads and soft silicone or Magic Cushion hoof packing eliminate concussive injuries.

The use of wedges helps to maintain healthy angles so that there is less strain on the suspensory apparatus and flexors that you would see on horses with underrun heels and low hoof wall angles.

The use of wedges with underrun heels also helps prevent negative palmer angles that can occur and cause all kinds of issues in the hoof capsule.

The use of wedges with underrun heels to raise the angles also helps prevent laminitic tears at the toe which could lead to mechanical founders.

The addition of small amounts of lead attached to the pad can help to balance a horse that hits himself (like a horse that toes out). I had a horse that came to me with a fractured splint bone because he hit himself. We added a 3 ounce lead on the problem hoof and he didn’t hit himself afterwards. It is like balancing a tire on your car.

The ability to customize shoes for what our horses need is paramount to keeping horses comfortable and sound and with longevity to their usefulness.

It is a shame that you see everything in black and white. I hate to think of what will happen to all of the horses that will no longer be able to compete without the ability to use pads…some of those big trotting horses (even barefoot) pound the ground pretty hard. It would be detrimental to so many horses if by the time they were 7 or 8 they were too body sore or hoof sore to keep competing. It would be a shame if every time a club footed baby was born it had to be culled because its options were limited.

Snipped for brevity:

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8886746]

The use of pads and soft silicone or Magic Cushion hoof packing eliminate concussive injuries.

This would be, arguably, a therapeutic use and permitted under the rules.

The use of wedges helps to maintain healthy angles so that there is less strain on the suspensory apparatus and flexors that you would see on horses with underrun heels and low hoof wall angles.

Why not just trim the horse to anatomical correctness?

The use of wedges with underrun heels also helps prevent negative palmer angles that can occur and cause all kinds of issues in the hoof capsule.

Another arguable therapeutic use.

The use of wedges with underrun heels to raise the angles also helps prevent laminitic tears at the toe which could lead to mechanical founders.

Again, the horse is trimmed to anatomical correctness this ought not to be necessary.

The addition of small amounts of lead attached to the pad can help to balance a horse that hits himself (like a horse that toes out). I had a horse that came to me with a fractured splint bone because he hit himself. We added a 3 ounce lead on the problem hoof and he didn’t hit himself afterwards. It is like balancing a tire on your car.

I’m not so sure about this. Doesn’t pass my “smell” test but I’m not sure why. I’d have to think, and read, about it.

The ability to customize shoes for what our horses need is paramount to keeping horses comfortable and sound and with longevity to their usefulness.

There is no prohibition on “customization” of shoes as long as the action is “therapeutic.”

It is a shame that you see everything in black and white. I hate to think of what will happen to all of the horses that will no longer be able to compete without the ability to use pads…some of those big trotting horses (even barefoot) pound the ground pretty hard. It would be detrimental to so many horses if by the time they were 7 or 8 they were too body sore or hoof sore to keep competing. It would be a shame if every time a club footed baby was born it had to be culled because its options were limited.[/QUOTE]

I see shades of gray quite well, thank you. The sad thing is the “shades of gray” and “it’s all for the benefit of the horse” arguments have been used for 40+ years to justify abuse and cruelty. I get that said use was a perversion of language. But that’s the history of the problem.

As I’ve said, I find the proposed Regulations to be fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

G.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8886808]

As I’ve said, I find the proposed Regulations to be fair and reasonable in the circumstances.

G.[/QUOTE]

And a great portion of the equestrian industry disagrees with you.

United States Equestrian Federation, American Horse Council, United Professional Horsemen’s Association, American Saddlebred Horse Association, American Morgan Horse Association, Arabian Horse Association and many others.

What I dont understand about these proposed regulations is their necessity. Doesnt laws against cruelty, soring, etc already exist? If so why not insist the rules are enforced? More regulations dont cause people to comply with the old ones if they arent enforced.

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8886940]
And a great portion of the equestrian industry disagrees with you.

United States Equestrian Federation, American Horse Council, United Professional Horsemen’s Association, American Saddlebred Horse Association, American Morgan Horse Association, Arabian Horse Association and many others.[/QUOTE]

" a GREAT portion"? Seriously? These breeds represent some of the smallest registries in the country. They are desperately trying to hold onto antiquated methods that CAN allow for cruelty, and do NOTHING for the welfare of the horses that is not allowed in the USDA proposal.

[QUOTE=pezk;8886997]
What I dont understand about these proposed regulations is their necessity. Doesnt laws against cruelty, soring, etc already exist? If so why not insist the rules are enforced? More regulations dont cause people to comply with the old ones if they arent enforced.[/QUOTE]

They do not specifically cover these breeds/registries.

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8885688]
You are the self-proclaimed queen of disfigured tails so I want you to tell me which of my horses’ tails you consider disfigured. I gave you ten or so different horses to choose from but you “choose not to play” because you know you cannot win my test.[/QUOTE]

When you get a moment, if you could please let me know where I made such a proclamation, I would very much appreciate it!