American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:23am

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8887072]
When you get a moment, if you could please let me know where I made such a proclamation, I would very much appreciate it![/QUOTE]

You have a webpage devoted to it, you authored and presented the proposed tail altering ban to USEF and you yourself said that you have DECADES of experience seeing all of these horrible practices. If you are authoring pages and authorizing and proposing legislation and you claim to have decades of experience then shouldn’t you be an expert?

So are you going to give your expert opinion on which of my horses have disfigured tails from the photos I linked to in the previous post? I want to know. You are the expert, tell me which are disfigured so I know which ones to not show …you are so confident that your proposal will pass. You tell me who I shouldn’t show. I want to know.

ASB_Stars · August 28, 2020, 8:23am

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8887093]
You have a webpage devoted to it, you authored and presented the proposed tail altering ban to USEF and you yourself said that you have DECADES of experience seeing all of these horrible practices. If you are authoring pages and authorizing and proposing legislation and you claim to have decades of experience then shouldn’t you be an expert?

So are you going to give your expert opinion on which of my horses have disfigured tails from the photos I linked to in the previous post? I want to know. You are the expert, tell me which are disfigured so I know which ones to not show …you are so confident that your proposal will pass. You tell me who I shouldn’t show. I want to know.[/QUOTE]

Nope. I am not an expert. Just a person with experience, and an opinion. And I am pretty sure that having a FB page doesn’t qualify anyone as being an expert…just sayin’ The fact that I have supported the PRC on my website (which, if you read the rest of it, isn’t actually devoted to tails) is my choice.

Because you are under the impression that you can design a game, and my not playing makes me…whatever…doesn’t actually matter to me. You’re entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine.

Carry on.

Guilherme · August 28, 2020, 8:23am

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8824608]
With all due respect Guilherme, the Senate version is greatly different than this version.

The version called the PAST Act (Prevent All Soring Tactics) is stuck in the House right now. The PAST act is limited to TWH, SSH and Racking horses. The original language included the possibilities for other breeds but so many people protested that they changed the language to limit it to the three breeds because they knew it would not pass a vote if it included breeds outside of those three.

Because the bill is stuck on the house floor, this option is being tried and it does have the far-reaching language that opens it up to other breeds.

This is NOT going up for vote. They are taking comments and then will submit text to go to the White House and afterwards if it is signed it will be added to the Federal Register as law.

This is a back-door way to get legislation through without having it voted on and as I stated, the language needs to be tightened up. We do not want any loopholes that have the potential to punish innocent segments of the horse industry that have NOTHING to do with the TWH industry.[/QUOTE]

The HPA is not, and never has been, applied solely to the TWH or it’s related breeds. It applies to horses, period. The practices prohibited have been largely the business of the Walkers and related breeds but that’s as far as “breed specificity” goes. If prohibited practices evolve in other breeds then they are subject to the Act, either under new Regulations of existing Regulations.

G.

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:23am

I never claimed that it was only for TWH. The original act clearly states that it applies towards all horses.

My issue is the verbiage on the proposed changes which will effect many breeds unnecessarily, and the fact that the proposed changes do not comply with Executive Order 12866 or 13563

gypsymare · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

It kills me a bit when I hear saddlebred people say oh no we don’t use stacks like those Tennessee walking horse folks do! in one of my other I’m not ready to join the real world jobs, I worked as a farrier’s assistant and half of our books was a very large saddlebred show barn. I cut so many pads and believe me these were not just therapeutic wedges. They weren’t any shorter than some of the big lick Tennessee walking horses you see are wearing minus that black rubber piece. One wedge pad and three pads for height were not uncommon, these pads being almost a centimeter high. That being said only a couple of the horses in the barn got that particular package most were much shorter. But it’s not like it didn’t exist and I see it all the time in current win photos.

What I really don’t want to see and what I fear will happen if they ban all pads is that people will just let the hooves grow out to grotesque lengths which isn’t any healthier for the horse.

Guilherme · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8887135]
I never claimed that it was only for TWH. The original act clearly states that it applies towards all horses.

My issue is the verbiage on the proposed changes which will effect many breeds unnecessarily, and the fact that the proposed changes do not comply with Executive Order 12866 or 13563[/QUOTE]

The word “unnecessarily” is an opinion, not a statement of fact. Others opine that they should be affected. So there you have it.

G.

csaper58 · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8885766]
I’ve read the HPA, the existing Regulations, the Proposed Regulations, and am a trained DQP under the existing Regulations. The opposition to the proposed Regulations just baffles me. I can’t believe the people making such noise about them have ever even READ them. Now reading Federal Regulations is almost as bad as reading an insurance policy, but it’s essential to read both if you want to KNOW what is in both, vice what somebody SAYS is in both.

To give full disclosure, I consider the use of ANY action device to be a mark of training incompetence by the user. Physically altering horses for cosmetic purposes is something I don’t understand. I don’t necessarily think it should be outlawed if there is no substantial detriment to the horse; every time we put a lead shank on a horse we “alter” it to some extent. Of course remove the lead shank and the “alteration” is done. Not so with surgical procedures. Still, unless there is credible evidence of physical detriment to the horse it’s a big “so what?” for me.

While bangles, beads, stretchies, and the like are he province of the incompetent trainer it’s my considered opinion that stacks and heavy shoes are not. These are the province of at least the abuser, and maybe the purveyor of cruelty. I understand just how they work, why they work, and consequences of their use. My understanding of those things leads me to my rejection of them. It also leads me to support their elimination by law.

I have no objection to honest and open discussion of these things. I do have objections to false claims and misstatements and misinterpretations of things. I’m not neutral on most of this and I state that in the interests of honest discussion.

G.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of this.

My only exception is in the case of injured or ill horses for whom special shoes, or procedures would offer benefits to healing and pain relief.

I would hope the language in any laws written would allow for a vet’s discretion.

Of course such horses will not be showing.

Edited to add… just saw that there is language to allow ‘Therapeutic’ options.

Hopefully those will not be morphed into gimmicks.

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8887112]
Nope. I am not an expert. Just a person with experience, and an opinion.
Carry on.[/QUOTE]

So you admit that you are not an expert, yet you deign to write legislation to legislate others. That is pretty pathetic.

I know your goals are to get tail altering banned so that you can market saddlebreds in the sport horse arena. Don’t lie and say you are not motivated by money in this. You are already promoting saddlebred sport horses.

Julie, I have watched you for the past 15 years or so on various forums complaining that you cannot sell saddlebred sport horses because people are turned off by the tails. Over and over, you whined about how much trouble you had selling them and marketing them because people were turned off by the tails.

You have monetary goals in this. You want to be able to market saddlebreds to a sport horse market because they ARE awesome sport horses and you already have the jump start on the market but just can’t seal the deals like you want because of the tails on the failed or repurposed saddle seat horses.

Boo fricken whoo. Don’t act like you don’t have monetary gains as a goal of getting this passed through USEF.

Guilherme · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=csaper58;8887217]
I agree with most of this.

My only exception is in the case of injured or ill horses for whom special shoes, or procedures would offer benefits to healing and pain relief.

I would hope the language in any laws written would allow for a vet’s discretion.

Of course such horses will not be showing.[/QUOTE]

If the shoes are therapeutic they are OK. That’s the plain language of the rules. Anyone who says otherwise is not being truthful.

G.

csaper58 · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

Failed or repurposed saddlebred show horses, trying to succeed at ‘sport’ usually have more glaring issues than their tails.

Saddlebreds and crosses that are raised for ‘sport’ usually have unaltered tails.

JMO

csaper58 · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8887237]
If the shoes are therapeutic they are OK. That’s the plain language of the rules. Anyone who says otherwise is not being truthful.

G.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=csaper58;8887253]
Failed or repurposed saddlebred show horses, trying to succeed at ‘sport’ usually have more glaring issues than their tails.

Saddlebreds and crosses that are raised for ‘sport’ usually have unaltered tails.

JMO[/QUOTE]

sez you

my horses can prove otherwise. I have had plenty of saddle seat horses that also jump…both Saddlebreds and Morgans.

Do you want to see pictures of my former park horse jumping a rolltop? Want to see two different English Pleasure horses taking a wall? How about a former saddle seat country pleasure horse on an eventing course?

Just let me know, I have the photos.

OH…and one of those “repurposed” show horses was reserve national champion working hunter for junior exhibitors at last years Morgan show. She just took third in the Hunter Hack National Finals class this afternoon. I don’t think she has “glaring issues.”

And in case you think she wasn’t a nice show horse, before she was in the sport horse division, she was a 2013 reserve national champion in the show horse division…wearing a padded shoe and weights at Nationals, then we pulled the show shoes and put her keg shoes on and the next day she showed in the sporthorse arena and placed top 10 in the Hunter Hack National Finals. The we put her show shoes back on and later in the week she showed back in the show horse divisions.

I have had a LOT of riders that will show in the show division with pads, and we cross-enter into sporthorse. It usually depends on which classes are offered and how the classes are spaced apart because we don’t always have time to change out shoes.

I am sorry, but you guys keep arguing about how detrimental the padded shoes are to the horses and I am finding the exact opposite. Like I said, you are seeing everything in black and white. My experience tells me that there is a lot of gray area and a lot of benefits to being able to customize shoeing as needed.

There are different people sports that necessitate different shoeing and there are different horse sports that necessitate different shoeing too.

People have sport shoes that are designed for lateral stability such as for playing tennis. You have sport shoes that are lightweight and are designed for runners to breakover off their toes more quickly, You have sport shoes with large padded cushioned insoles and ankle supports for basketball players. You have soccer shoes designed for traction on grass and the ability to make quick turns and spins. If suddenly the IOC decides that running shoes are the gold standards for all human sports, then the basketball players will suffer, the tennis players will suffer, etc.

Why should flat shod keg shoes be the gold standard for every discipline? What will protect our horses from concussive injuries?

As I stated before, a big trotting horse pounds the ground pretty hard…even if he isn’t shod for showing. Forcing these horses to work in keg shoes without pads will bring on concussive and arthritic changes much earlier and thus shorten their competitive lifespans. Then what happens?

What happens to the horses that have a club foot, or toe out, or have a limb anomaly that causes them to have an unbalanced trot that puts them at risk of injury? We will not be allowed to help these horses. What happens to those horses?

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

Pictures, I decided to post them anyway…the proof is in the doing.

This is Teddy
English Pleasure (note he has a clubby hoof)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1855864870295&set=a.1324177178435.2048139.1051037955&type=3&theater

jumping
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1661636534708&set=a.1324177178435.2048139.1051037955&type=3&theater

Austin
Classic Pleasure
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1855874990548&set=a.1694970408034.2091571.1051037955&type=3&theater

Jumping the rolltop
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4657048578137&set=a.1694970408034.2091571.1051037955&type=3&theater

Gus
ASB Hunter Pleasure
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4910052263071&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater

jumping
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1085480891177&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater

Toi
NSH English Pleasure
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4339339515609&set=a.3605063119158.2148518.1051037955&type=3&theater

jumping
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208887946209861&set=a.3605063119158.2148518.1051037955&type=3&theater

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

I do not run the most traditional training facility. I let my students have fun with their show horses…bareback, trail riding, cross training between saddle seat, hunter seat, western and driving. I encourage my riders to try different things because they should never pass up an opportunity to learn new things and it gives them new divisions to show in.

Saddle Seat develops great hands and a strong abdominal core, hunter seat teaches them to be softer and less stiff through their back, Western pleasure teaches them to stay loose and relaxes in their hips and to pay attention to how their seat influences the horse. Driving gives them a better perspective of how much better an engaged hind end looks because they can see it immediately. I also teach my show kids to long-line their own horses so they can watch how their hands effect how the horse carries itself and they can see what I mean when I tell them to lift the horse’s shoulder so it doesn’t fall in on a turn.

You never know what division your horse may end up in at my barn …I have a former park horse who last showed in the Western division, LOL…and he won his novice Western pleasure class at regionals.

ASB_Stars · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8887221]
So you admit that you are not an expert, yet you deign to write legislation to legislate others. That is pretty pathetic.

I know your goals are to get tail altering banned so that you can market saddlebreds in the sport horse arena. Don’t lie and say you are not motivated by money in this. You are already promoting saddlebred sport horses.

Julie, I have watched you for the past 15 years or so on various forums complaining that you cannot sell saddlebred sport horses because people are turned off by the tails. Over and over, you whined about how much trouble you had selling them and marketing them because people were turned off by the tails.

You have monetary goals in this. You want to be able to market saddlebreds to a sport horse market because they ARE awesome sport horses and you already have the jump start on the market but just can’t seal the deals like you want because of the tails on the failed or repurposed saddle seat horses.

Boo fricken whoo. Don’t act like you don’t have monetary gains as a goal of getting this passed through USEF.[/QUOTE]

Andrea- OF COURSE I want all of our American Saddlebreds to have an opportunity to something outside of the show ring…

But you are way off base, because I closed shop on selling sport horses some years back. Now, I do rescue- exclusively- and there are four horses and a donkey on my farm. I do not forsee any of them ever leaving.

So, here is my real feeling about your response…

How freaking dare you! My ONLY purpose in this is the welfare of the breed I love, and there is NOT. ONE. SINGLE. person who knows me, or has been here, who doesn’t know that. The fact that I determined that it was more reasonable to make this something for ALL horses is only a piece of the puzzle, by the way. Who do you think you are to judge my intent? Oh, that’s right- someone who makes their living with horses. I don’t.

I do not really care what you think about any of this. There are a bunch of nickel trainers out there who are going to fight it. So be it.

But don’t you dare, ever, think to question my motives in this. You simply aren’t in any position to do that.

ASB_Stars · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=csaper58;8887253]
Failed or repurposed saddlebred show horses, trying to succeed at ‘sport’ usually have more glaring issues than their tails.

Saddlebreds and crosses that are raised for ‘sport’ usually have unaltered tails.

JMO[/QUOTE]

True- but, I have spent a lifetime repurposing these horses, and, in reality, their issues are more about trying to do what they believe a human wants. Once you uninstall show horse 101, and install sport horse 101, which can take time, as you are rebuilding them mentally, and physically, you would not believe what a great partner you can have.

But, if they have a messed up tail, I cannot even get them a look for a new home.

Amwrider · August 28, 2020, 8:24am

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8887437]

But don’t you dare, ever, think to question my motives in this. You simply aren’t in any position to do that.[/QUOTE]

I can’t question your motives when all along you and others have been questioning mine?

And you are not the only one that has been repurposing old show horses…I have worked with and rehabbed many rescued horses.

ASB_Stars · August 28, 2020, 8:25am

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8887455]
I can’t question your motives when all along you and others have been questioning mine?

And you are not the only one that has been repurposing old show horses…I have worked with and rehabbed many rescued horses.[/QUOTE]

And I would never take that away from anyone. I have NOT questioned your motives. You are giving me too much credit- I don’t give a damn why you are doing what you are doing. Seriously. Do. Not. Care.

I simply know why I am doing what I am. And that is enough.

csaper58 · August 28, 2020, 8:25am

ASB Stars…I am sorry that where you are people would passes up an appropriate, talented, horse because of it’s tail. Perhaps those people don’t deserve your horses.

Amwrider…I have found that there are other options than keg shoes. A lovely wide web hand forged shoe works well for several saddle/sport horses here.

Therapeutic shoes for horses with angular limb deformities are going to be allowed.