This is a Dressage shoeing:
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8896594]
This is a Dressage shoeing:
In what way is this alarming?
I see normal toe length, clips, and regular shoes slightly bigger than the horse’s hoof, with trailers. (Which was a lot how my mare’s hooves looked when we moved her up from size 00 to size 0 shoes. This was the vet’s recommendation, and my farrier agreed that shoeing “too big” was better than too small. Over time, with hot shoeing, he’s gotten a better hoof shape that is closer to size 0, but some trailer remains.)
This really looks nothing like what you will often see on a saddleseat horse. As I learned last week, “pads” to their farriers does not mean a 1/4 inch thick piece of rubber, with a slight wedge if needed, to protect the hoof from rough ground.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8896587]
I am not saying it is good or that it doesn’t happen.
I am saying the proposed rule does not limit natural hoof length.
- It won’t ‘go away’ if the rule is passed.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8896550]
My Charming Lady
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/87/ae/31/87ae31d64ad39509f28de5a898348e5b.jpg
Personally I believe this is too much foot and shoe, yet the proposed rules would not restrict this as this is the mares ‘natural’ hoof, not added pads and there is no restriction on natural hoof length.
So she is not ‘postable’ in support of the proposed rules, other than the band: which would be prohibited.
Along came a Spider in 5-gaited shoes
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2c/08/a6/2c08a6c80059ea93293a755db736b863.jpg
I am not able to gauge the length of her foot by looking, nor the weight of her shoes; but the pad does not seem like much depth to it.
Again, the foot length is not prohibited by the proposed rules.
And No, I don’t find this shoeing offensive.[/QUOTE]
Ay yi yi! Those are nasty looking feet. 
Both of them. Why do people have to go to such lengths to win? You may not find that shoeing offensive, but I bet every other discipline would. That is so nasty, the front hooves ruin the beauty of the horse and turn them into freak shows.
[QUOTE=gypsymare;8896574]
The addition of multiple hard plastic pads do nothing for concussion. A balanced hoof with heathy heels and digital cushion would be much more beneficial [/QUOTE]
This length is excessive and most horses are not grown out this much. I am curious as to how you think this hoof isn’t balanced. Balanced how? Medio-laterally? Balanced Angles? Balanced as in putting support under the boney column of the leg? Balanced as in keeping p1-p3 in proper alignment? I am just curious because other than just having a long hoof wall, I don’t see how you can say anything is out of balance.
Also, the plastic wedges are not “hard.” They have give and they dissipate concussion. Both steel and aluminum carry a great deal of vibration when struck (or when it strikes the ground). Also a leather pad is placed on top of the plastic pad because without the leather, the hoof has a bit more “slide” on the pad.
One wedge, one leather pad maximum. More than that is excessive.
So what would you do with a clubfooted horse whose angles are off by more than 3 percent? You would automatically cut down the heel on the club foot even if the club foot was properly aligned? You would compromise alignment to fit to some standard you want to promote? How is THAT healthy and protective of the horse?
[QUOTE=quietann;8896614]
This really looks nothing like what you will often see on a saddleseat horse. As I learned last week, “pads” to their farriers does not mean a 1/4 inch thick piece of rubber, with a slight wedge if needed, to protect the hoof from rough ground.[/QUOTE]
You have a whole week of expertise? We should defer to your knowledge?
The purpose of pads and wedges, if you go back and read this entire thread, is to dissipate concussion, to even out angles because club feet are common with saddlebred and morgan horses, and also because it does help some horses have a steadier performance when you can better match their strides to each other.
As stated many times over on this thread…when you have a horse bred for a high-motioned trot, the horses tend to smack the ground with each stride. Horses with a lot of extension to their trot also hit hard with their heels. You cannot have a soft arena for them because soft footing causes stifle injuries (as anyone in FL can attest to)
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8896666]
You have a whole week of expertise? We should defer to your knowledge?
The purpose of pads and wedges, if you go back and read this entire thread, is to dissipate concussion, to even out angles because club feet are common with saddlebred and morgan horses, and also because it does help some horses have a steadier performance when you can better match their strides to each other.
As stated many times over on this thread…when you have a horse bred for a high-motioned trot, the horses tend to smack the ground with each stride. Horses with a lot of extension to their trot also hit hard with their heels. You cannot have a soft arena for them because soft footing causes stifle injuries (as anyone in FL can attest to)[/QUOTE]
My first horse- a well-bred ASB mare- had a club foot. The entire time she was a show horse, with show horse shoeing, it was an issue. Why? Because, as these horses grow out foot, they grow out dish.
When I pulled her out of the show world, her first blacksmith was Steve O’ Grady- prior to him being Dr. Stephen O’Grady. He was brilliant, and showed me how to bring a horses heels into alignment, take a toe back, and ultimately build a horse with correct feet underneath them.
Our Charming Lady is wearing bands to hold those shoes on, in that picture. Without them, I would imagine, she would have thrown off those shoes, and ripped off a bunch of that foot. People in the SS show world do not see that length of foot as being the REAL issue. Yeah, it might be too much, but hey…
Aluminum does not dissipate any impact worth a damn. It has sting to it. Steel, on the other hand, has resiliency and spring to it, and helps dissipate the force with which horses land on those feet. Those big dressage horses, with size three feet are landing on some springy steel.
Depending on the type and nature of a pad, there may be some compensation for force- but it isn’t from leather or plastic pads, which offer precious little relief, other than from debris on the ground.
How do you handle a horse with a club foot? Correctly. You do not choose to exacerbate the situation, or make the horse something that they are not by stacking more crap on them. You don’t artificially screw with their angles- you do right by them, and actually work to proactively correct what you can.
That’s horsemanship.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8896652]
This length is excessive and most horses are not grown out this much. I am curious as to how you think this hoof isn’t balanced. Balanced how? Medio-laterally? Balanced Angles? Balanced as in putting support under the boney column of the leg? Balanced as in keeping p1-p3 in proper alignment? I am just curious because other than just having a long hoof wall, I don’t see how you can say anything is out of balance.
Also, the plastic wedges are not “hard.” They have give and they dissipate concussion. Both steel and aluminum carry a great deal of vibration when struck (or when it strikes the ground). Also a leather pad is placed on top of the plastic pad because without the leather, the hoof has a bit more “slide” on the pad.
So what would you do with a clubfooted horse whose angles are off by more than 3 percent? You would automatically cut down the heel on the club foot even if the club foot was properly aligned? You would compromise alignment to fit to some standard you want to promote? How is THAT healthy and protective of the horse?[/QUOTE]
Excess length to that degree necessitates severely contracted heels. That is not a balanced hoof in the least. You are kidding yourself if you think these pads are for concussion or that a Saddlebred working in a groomed arena in a class for a few minutes endures more concussion than a Grand Prix jumper, 100 mile endurance horse or race horse which all routinely compete in keg shoes sans padding. The pads and excess length are there purely to exaggerate the horses movement.
Leather pads are placed between the hoof and plastic for breathability to discourage thrush, not traction. Yes, those plastic pads are HARD. They can be reset almost indefinitely and don’t compress. When you have to cut a new set it’s a pain in the rear. Even tin snips have trouble cutting through. They sell a rotating cutting wheel with a crank handle to cut those suckers then they get a grinder or finishing rasp to final shape.
As for a club foot, one thing you definitely don’t do is wedge up the opposite normal foot to match the distorted angle of the club foot. That’s a recipe for early lameness. If the disparity is so severe that you need a stack on one hoof to match the other then just maybe that horse should find a career where he isn’t judged on symmetry of movement.
I will give you that, I am 100% positive that that horse has contracted heels.
You are kidding yourself if you think these pads are for concussion or that a Saddlebred working in a groomed arena in a class for a few minutes endures more concussion than a Grand Prix jumper, 100 mile endurance horse or race horse which all routinely compete in keg shoes sans padding. The pads and excess length are there purely to exaggerate the horses movement.
I am not kidding myself, you are kidding yourself. None of those horses compete at a trot. A jumper jumps 15 or so obstacles in competition. A saddle seat trotting horse has impact with every single step they take in competition, in warmups, in training. 1000 times a day they are hitting that ground hard with each foot and as I have said before, you cannot have a soft sand arena for working in because that produces stifle issues.
Yes, those plastic pads are HARD. They can be reset almost indefinitely and don’t compress.
yes, they can and do compress. Sometimes we don’t use the leather pad and when the shoe is removed, you can see indentations in the pad where the hoof wall has compressed the pad…you know, because of that CONCUSSION I talk about.
When you have to cut a new set it’s a pain in the rear. Even tin snips have trouble cutting through. They sell a rotating cutting wheel with a crank handle to cut those suckers then they get a grinder or finishing rasp to final shape.
of course tin snips give you trouble cutting through. Tin snips are designed to cut thin sheets of metal, not thick plastic.
All of my farriers have just used a jigsaw. And yes, once it is nailed onto between the hoof and shoe, it is rasped so that the sides are flush with the hoof wall and don’t leave any edges sticking out on the sides.
for a club foot, one thing you definitely don’t do is wedge up the opposite normal foot to match the distorted angle of the club foot. That’s a recipe for early lameness. If the disparity is so severe that you need a stack on one hoof to match the other then just maybe that horse should find a career where he isn’t judged on symmetry of movement.
I have had several club footed horses and they have all had very long competitive careers. The problem with a club foot, is that without an xray, you don’t know what is going on inside the hoof capsule. I would NEVER have a club foot cut down to match the other foot at a risk of putting the inside structures out of the alignment the horse was BORN with. To do so increases the chances of ringbone and tendon or suspensory damage. But if we can maintain the angles on the good foot and balance it to the bad foot we can keep the horse working comfortably and more evenly.
I have NEVER had a shoeing or training tendon issue, navicular issue, laminitic or founder issue. ringbone issue, or suspensory issue in almost 2 decades of training…and I am not training for the little local shows, I train for Nationals.
I have a 21 year old clubfooted horse in my barn that was showing until this year. He was 3rd at Nationals and 7th in the World in 2012. He did damage his SFT early this year when he was barefoot and running in the pasture. Most of his career was as a Park horse.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8896666]
You have a whole week of expertise? We should defer to your knowledge?
The purpose of pads and wedges, if you go back and read this entire thread, is to dissipate concussion, to even out angles because club feet are common with saddlebred and morgan horses, and also because it does help some horses have a steadier performance when you can better match their strides to each other.
As stated many times over on this thread…when you have a horse bred for a high-motioned trot, the horses tend to smack the ground with each stride. Horses with a lot of extension to their trot also hit hard with their heels. You cannot have a soft arena for them because soft footing causes stifle injuries (as anyone in FL can attest to)[/QUOTE]
Hey, there is no need to be snarky. I observe what I observe, and am a fairly frequent attendee at Morgan shows. Nationals is great because it has everything, so it’s easy to compare hooves across the different disciplines. And other conformation issues (e.g. you do not see the underslung necks, low backs and overly straight hind legs in the sport classes.) I’m sure that you’re aware that Morgan show and sport horse breeding do not overlap much. For a “general purpose” Morgan, the sport people are doing way better. Their horses are rarely breed-ring extreme in type, but still mostly recognizable as Morgans. And many go barefoot.
Yes, I know about club feet in these breeds… but the rest of the horse world seems to be able to deal with club feet without putting on a “package,” as long as they are not too severe.
What I really didn’t like seeing at Nationals, and it may not have anything to do with shoeing, is that the majority of the SS horses paddle very noticeably. This seems to go with a narrow chest. (ETA my mare is narrow up front and paddles with her left front.)
My mare wears 1/4 inch rubber pads in front, after a bout of mechanical laminitis a few years ago, with a slight wedge on her left front because it helps keep her from tripping. SS pads are NOTHING like what one sees in the sporthorse world.
I have had several clubfooted horses over the years and they do not all grow out dish. I have two standing in my barn right now with very upright walls anterior hoof walls with no dish.
and showed me how to bring a horses heels into alignment, take a toe back, and ultimately build a horse with correct feet underneath them.
So it is OK for you to “build” a horse? I have news for you, a club footed horse will never have “correct” feet underneath them. What may look correct to the eye may be a hot mess internally when x-rayed
Our Charming Lady is wearing bands to hold those shoes on, in that picture. Without them, I would imagine, she would have thrown off those shoes, and ripped off a bunch of that foot. People in the SS show world do not see that length of foot as being the REAL issue. Yeah, it might be too much, but hey…
I agree with you here, I do not like an excessively long hoof wall, but the horse is healthy and cared for and is not in any pain. I do not deign to tell other people how to manage their healthy, cared for and pain-free horses just because I don’t like the way it looks. I don’t like the way eventing looks but I don’t tell those people I want to see it end or I want to see it regulated. I don’t like the way barrel racing looks but I don’t tell those people I want to see it end or I want to see it regulated. I don’t like to see the crank nosebands and dropped nosebands on dressage horses but I don’t tell those people I want to see it end or I want to see it regulated.
My OPINION shouldn’t trump the desires of other people that are taking care of healthy, happy, and well cared for horses.
Aluminum does not dissipate any impact worth a damn. It has sting to it. Steel, on the other hand, has resiliency and spring to it, and helps dissipate the force with which horses land on those feet. Those big dressage horses, with size three feet are landing on some springy steel.
I agree, steel is much more forgiving than aluminum. I retired a 21 year old saddlebred to put him in my lesson program back in 2005 and I had a local farrier work on him. He put him in an aluminum shoe and it was not pretty
Depending on the type and nature of a pad, there may be some compensation for force- but it isn’t from leather or plastic pads, which offer precious little relief, other than from debris on the ground.
I see what the plastic pads look like as they wear down and I respectfully disagree with you. Having a plastic pad and wedge also allows the use of silicone or cushion products between the pad and sole so we also are building a “cushioned insole” of sorts on the bottom of the hoof.
How do you handle a horse with a club foot? Correctly. You do not choose to exacerbate the situation, or make the horse something that they are not by stacking more crap on them. You don’t artificially screw with their angles- you do right by them, and actually work to proactively correct what you can.
No, we do not screw with their angles, we maintain the angles no matter whether the horse is barefoot, in kegs, or in a package. We maintain a healthy angle on the hooves.
I want to throw this out there for people to mull over.
Before I moved my barn this year, I had a horse and rider who competed over fences and also in the performance division with a padded horse. The same horse did both divisions.
From 2013-2015 at Nationals this horse and rider would start out the week competing in the padded classes. She usually showed Sunday, Monday and Friday in padded classes. On Tuesday and Wednesday were the hunter and jumper classes.
We would pull the package of shoes on Monday after competition, put the keg shoes on, the rider would compete over fences on Tuesday or Wednesday depending on what classes we had selected, and then the show shoes would go back on.
And she has been Reserve National Champion in both padded and over fences.
If padding up the horse was that detrimental, or effected that much “change” to the horse, would we be able to do this?
I had other riders do this too, but the highest they showed was our Regional Championships. Emma and Kelsa were the only ones of my “cross-trainers” that did this at the National/World Championship show.
She did it again this year with her new trainer so this makes 4 years in a row.
The people with the agenda are trying to paint a horrible picture because they want to control the narrative and get their agenda pushed through.
Having spent 15 years riding hunter/jumpers and the last 24 years with mostly saddle seat horses…I can honestly say that I see considerably fewer injuries to the saddle seat horses. So when I see people saying that how we shoe our horses is unnatural, cruel, unhealthy, detrimental…I HAVE to speak out.
Just because YOU don’t like the way it looks, doesn’t mean it is bad. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, but you are trying to infringe on the rights of people who do take excellent care of our horses and love our horses and love our sport.
Seriously? Endurance horses typically travel at a trot greater than 50% of the time and those distances take 14+ hours to travel on natural and often hard, rocky terrain. Jumpers are landing with momentum plus 100% of their body weight on their front hooves. And you don’t think they train at a trot? Fox hunters frequently have long bouts of trotting on asphalt in addition to jumping 30+ efforts and covering 15 miles. None of these horses need pads except for a few special cases. If your pads are so therapeutic and supportive then why remove them for going over fences? If it weren’t a rule that you couldn’t, would you jump a horse in stacks? Why or why not?
“The good ones go light”. Wouldn’t that be the ones with the highest best action? If so, in your logic wouldn’t that mean they would need more pads due to their extreme movement? Except… they don’t.
yes, they can and do compress. Sometimes we don’t use the leather pad and when the shoe is removed, you can see indentations in the pad where the hoof wall has compressed the pad…you know, because of that CONCUSSION I talk about.
You see these indentations in metals shoes, too, due to the ABRASION of the motion of the hoof. Not compression or concussion. Put that 1/8" leather pad back on and voila, no marks even with the exact same amount of weight on it.
I have had several club footed horses and they have all had very long competitive careers. The problem with a club foot, is that without an xray, you don’t know what is going on inside the hoof capsule. I would NEVER have a club foot cut down to match the other foot at a risk of putting the inside structures out of the alignment the horse was BORN with. To do so increases the chances of ringbone and tendon or suspensory damage. But if we can maintain the angles on the good foot and balance it to the bad foot we can keep the horse working comfortably and more evenly.
So you agree that the club should not be cut down to “normal” due to the risk of damage but it’s ok to jack up the normal hoof to match it and that does no damage?
I am amazed that someone can think that a Grand Prix jumper has less stress on their feet, let alone joints, than a show horse. Unreal. The level of fitness that the horses have to maintain to do courses multiple times in a day, is very, very high. The amount of stress that a 1200# horse puts on those feet and joints- both on take off, and particularly on landing is enormous. How about the level of fitness for event horses, CDE horses, and endurance horses? And you think that SS horses do MORE? Seriously?
And, regarding club feet, it is amazing what working to get correct angles- without jamming pads under the OTHER foot can do. You need to get out more. There are talented blacksmiths out there- and barefoot trimmers, who actually improve on the organic issues, and yet, we do BUILD better feet- simply by NOT building anything artificial under them, at all.
And those plastic pads that you agree have indentations on them? Aluminum does the same thing- that’s because there is no resiliency in it. It might protect the sole from damage from debris, however, in addition to the obvious creation of a flatter sole, over time, all those pads do, after the first one, is add length to the foot.
The good ones do go light but they still smack the ground pretty hard.
I do not care if a foxhunter or endurance horse or jumper wants to wear pads when they compete. If that is what their horse needs to stay comfortable and to keep performing comfortably then I am OK with that.
We have jumped that mare with her show package on at home and even at some shows.
At Nationals, the sport horse division is judged by a sport horse judge. They like more traditional turnouts so we put a traditional shoeing job on her for the sporthorse flat classes and over fence classes.
What I see on the pads are not abrasions, they are little bitty canyons crushed into the surface of the pad where the hoof wall at the heel contacts it. Of course if you put the pad back on it goes away, the pad dissipates the concussion further. Unfortunately the leather pads also hold a lot of moisture so here in FL sometimes if the conditions are too wet we will go without a leather pad for a reset, sometimes two if it is really wet, because the leather absorbs the wet and holds the wet in on the hoof wall which is not healthy for the hoof.
I wish I had kept some of my old shoes and packages. The flood on my farm last year ruined a bunch of stuff and I think I threw most of them out. I may have kept a few, but if I did they are packed up in boxes in the storage room after I moved. Maybe I will see if I did keep some.
I can’t take any current pictures because mine are all barefoot right now except one Morgan in kegs and my lesson horse who is in a keg but has a wedge. I don’t have anyone in show packages right now.
And for your final question, putting a wedge to shim up the opposite hoof from a club foot does not harm the horse as long as you maintain the angles and do it correctly.
Just want to add that the conformation of SS horses is typically different from hunter horses. Upright neck, laid back shoulder as well as arm and forearm angulature and placement.
Not that there isn’t crossover but ss horses are no question more up and down than long and low.
All of this plays into shoeing.
And I think it is impossible to compare concussion.
[QUOTE=roseymare;8897039]
Just want to add that the confirmation of SS horses is typically different from hunter horses. Upright neck, laid back shoulder as well as arm and forearm angulature and placement.
Not that there isn’t crossover but ss horses are no question more up and down than long and low.
All of this plays into shoeing.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does. Your typical TB or QH has a forearm that is set way beneath his body with a head and neck that ties on quite low on the chest. There is a lot of “meat” that the horse carries in front of the forearm. The flight path of the hoof from ground to air to ground again is pretty flat.
The saddlebreds and Morgans and Arabians etc. that are bred for the ability to lift their legs high, are bred to have the neck tie on high on the chest, the withers to be very far back from the forearm, the forearm to be very forward under the chest. The less “meat” on top of the forearm, the better the conformation allows the forearm to come up in the stride. When the horse moves with its head up, the foot path from ground to air to ground again has a more elliptical pattern to its flightpath, and because the hoof goes up so high and so forward, it does smack down. Also, because it travels in a more circular pattern, when something is out of balance it is more pronounced because the circular pattern creates more centrifugal/centripetal force and more tension.
Saddle Seat Horses
http://www.merriehillfarm.com/images/mastr/SLB%20Armani(Mastroianni%20x%20SLB%20Sarah).JPG
https://www.morganhorse.com/marketplace/stallions/balenciaga/
https://www.morganhorse.com/marketplace/stallions/ecp-anchor-man/
https://www.morganhorse.com/marketplace/stallions/rwj-commanding-topic/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/488710997036094271/
compare to the conformation of TB and Warmblood
As a visual for those learning about the English breeds, We like to say the saddleseat horse has his legs more on the four corners.
Amwrider, I like the meat definition as well. Always looking for new ways to explain things. Thanks.
Yeah…I tell people that I was primed to swim competitively when I was younger but I got too “meaty” on my chest to be streamlined. Damn genetics…
