[QUOTE=Amwrider;8896666]
The purpose of pads and wedges, if you go back and read this entire thread, is to dissipate concussion, to even out angles because club feet are common with saddlebred and morgan horses, [/QUOTE]
Perhaps it is time to evaluate why ‘club’ feet are so common in these 2 breeds and try to change that?
I have seen too many horses with a foot with a rotated coffin bone passed off as ‘club’ footed.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8896951]
I want to throw this out there for people to mull over.
Before I moved my barn this year, I had a horse and rider who competed over fences and also in the performance division with a padded horse. The same horse did both divisions.
From 2013-2015 at Nationals this horse and rider would start out the week competing in the padded classes. She usually showed Sunday, Monday and Friday in padded classes. On Tuesday and Wednesday were the hunter and jumper classes.
We would pull the package of shoes on Monday after competition, put the keg shoes on, the rider would compete over fences on Tuesday or Wednesday depending on what classes we had selected, and then the show shoes would go back on.[/QUOTE]
So, you would pull off one set of shoes, and reset something else on Monday, pull that off and reset original shoes again on Thursday?
How many times a year was this done? What shoes did the horse wear for the majority of the year?
[QUOTE=csaper58;8897326]
So, you would pull off one set of shoes, and reset something else on Monday, pull that off and reset original shoes again on Thursday?
How many times a year was this done? What shoes did the horse wear for the majority of the year?[/QUOTE]
As already stated, this was only done for one week, the week we are at Nationals.
For most of the year she wore her padded shoes. She wore her kegs from November through February when she was on vacation from showing.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897059]
The less “meat” on top of the forearm, the better the conformation allows the forearm to come up in the stride. [/QUOTE]
The ‘meat on top of the forearm’ is what would allow the horse to control the descent of the foot and how hard it contacts the ground.
If I have an empty 5 gal bucket resting on the ground beside me, and I pick it up and attempt to set it 2 feet in front of me I can set it gently on the ground.
If I, with my skinny arms, try that same thing with a 5 gal bucket filled with water, it develops momentum I can not control, and ‘smacks the ground’.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8897297]
Perhaps it is time to evaluate why ‘club’ feet are so common in these 2 breeds and try to change that?
I have seen too many horses with a foot with a rotated coffin bone passed off as ‘club’ footed.[/QUOTE]
And, when trimmed correctly, the degree of rotation is decreased. I have a horse here, right now, whose show shoes I still have around. He has an upright left front foot. When shod for show, with pads and bands, he has a pretty decent dish in that foot. He beat his shoes off on the ride to Lexington, KY, from the farm in SW KY, where I bought him from. Some of his foot is still in that shoe.
Now, he has a foot with lovely open heels, no dish, and angles that match the other front foot.
Amazing how that can happen.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8897358]
The ‘meat on top of the forearm’ is what would allow the horse to control the descent of the foot and how hard it contacts the ground.
If I have an empty 5 gal bucket resting on the ground beside me, and I pick it up and attempt to set it 2 feet in front of me I can set it gently on the ground.
If I, with my skinny arms, try that same thing with a 5 gal bucket filled with water, it develops momentum I can not control, and ‘smacks the ground’.[/QUOTE]
A 5 gallon bucket filled with water has more mass and weight upon which gravity can act, and if you want to discuss muscles, then a properly conditioned athlete would be able to set the 5 gallon bucket of water down with more control than a soft computer geek would.
The “meat” on top of the forearm does not control the downward phase of the stride. It controls the upward/forward part of the stride.
The very same ASBs that make show horses can also be sport horses. In order to win at the very top- you need a vertical neckset- the other conformation factors remain the same. Over time, working with their head and necks up, as opposed to working long and low, the upright musculature develops. Backs drop, undersides of necks become pronounced. Croups flatten.
If you want to rebuild a topline- you need a year. Then, they do not look like the same horses, at all.
This has been one of the fallacies that makes it hard for people to look at show horses, and understand that they can be brilliant sport horses. Most people conceptualize poorly.
Read the second piece on my blog. It explains a lot.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897037]
We have jumped that mare with her show package on at home and even at some shows. [/QUOTE]
This is just so wrong.
I am glad for the horse’s sake you got lucky and nothing bad happened, but that does not mean this is an intelligent, (or compassionate) thing to do.
For me, this discredits you as a trainer, teacher, and a horseman.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897368]
The “meat” on top of the forearm does not control the downward phase of the stride. It controls the upward/forward part of the stride.[/QUOTE]
Kinesiology says differently, you are quite incorrect.
Sorry, I don’t know about Kinesiology, I just go by what I have read in medical texts, not holistic stuff like Kinesiology.
Pectoral muscles are muscles for adduction. They pull the leg forward.
[QUOTE=earsup;8895962]
I appreciate the constructive turn this discussion has taken since I last checked in. Lots of good information here about trotting breeds.
G, I also appreciate that you’ve shared a little more background on why you have the view you have. I call out your responses, above, because I wonder if your opinions are so different from some of others expressed here due to your past experience as you’ve described it–with TWHs and such and not with trotting breeds?
It’s more about equine bio mechanics and physics than “experience.”
As for using pads to cushion…I’d like to share some of my personal experience that might add context. I’ve just pulled the shoes off my show horse and we were out for a leasurely ride yesterday. You could hear her feet POUNDING the ground at the WALK because she has so much natural up-and-down motion. I’ve never left here completely bare up front before and I worry her front feet may become sore during turnout.
Of course, soreness can happen to any horse on hard ground, but the harder the pounding, the greater the possibility of discomfort for the horse–that’s why we (eventers) don’t gallop and try to avoid any significant conditioning of our horses on terrain when the ground gets hard from either drought or freezing. Of course, many eventing horses wear pads–and it has nothing to do with altering their gait–it’s all about giving their feet some cushion since they pound the ground so hard 
And remember, trotting breeds use thin pads/wedges rather than the thick stacks seen on “padded” TWHs–something so completely different that I have trouble thinking of the two practices in the same category.
The two photos you put up don’t look like “thin, wedgie pads” to me. They look like kin to the TWH stack. Whether we’re talking about siblings, kissing cousins, or distant relatives can’t really be seen from those photos. But see below.
The chains trotting breeds use are estremely light–nothing like what’s on a TWH in my understanding. I think those heavy chains might hurt, but that’s neither the intent nor the result of the light ones used by the trotting breeds. It’s a completely different thing–and, like Amrider, I’ve never seen rubs, sores or tender spots from the use of chains in the trotting world. I understand (and I may be misinformed, so correct me if needed) physical evidence of chain use on TWH is both obvious and common. A simple walk down the barn aisle and visual inventory of feet at a trotting show barn would refute that line of thinking.[/QUOTE]
I’ve actually walked down more than one ASB barn aisle and used to stay overnight on trips west at a very pricy, very well set up Morgan show barn. I’ve seen what’s in the tack rooms. The chains ranged from light plastic to rather heavy, metal links. I’ve never seen your tack room so I have no idea what you have or don’t have.
I’ve also seen the feet, in the flesh in both breeds. The stacks are not the same as the TWH folks use but they are awfully similar. Watching the horses work it was clear to me that the reason for the visual similarity was functional similarity.
The claim of just “shock absorbption” is frankly incredible based upon my personal experiences and the explanations I’ve received from some very knowledgeable farriers and vets.
As to “correction”, if club footing is as prevalent in Morgans and ASBs as you suggest then I think somebody needs to go back and review their breeding practices. If production of physical deformity is being encouraged in the breeding shed then you’ve got some pretty sorry humans making breeding decisions.
And that really does happen. It’s very common in some laterally gaited horse lines to have rear legs that are longer than front legs. This makes “overstride” difficult and that makes creation of exaggerated gait difficult. So breeders several decades back began to breed for “sickle hocks” as it allowed for more overstride. It also functionally weakened the rear end of the horse. That didn’t matter to the breeders as they got what they wanted. This is not to suggest that ASB or Morgan breeders want sickle hocks; it is to demonstrate that “show ring breeding” can easily depart from principles of sound conformation if that show ring breeding allows for larger human egos, and their larger gratification.
I’ve read your subsequent posts and looked at the photos. I particularly compared several of the SS horses to the WB horses. I’m not sure what the point of this is. The SS horses were all “parked out” to one degree or another and that stance is a wonderful way to hide conformational defects. Was there some other point?
The proposed regulations will clearly have an adverse affect on part of the ASB, Morgan, Arabian, and maybe other “show worlds.” Knowing what I know about those worlds I applaud that practices which I find range from disturbing to outright cruel will be eliminated. We might not eliminate everything, but in this instance I’m willing to accept that “excellent” is preferable to “perfect.”
For these, and other reasons stated and unstated, I support the imposition of the new rules as I see them written.
G.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897399]
Sorry, I don’t know about Kinesiology, I just go by what I have read in medical texts, not holistic stuff like Kinesiology.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t going to comment on this thread but this comment just shows how ignorant you are.
Kinesiology is the interrelationship between physiological processes and anatomy during movement. Ever heard the term biomechanics? I’m guessing not…
Although I should have known when you incorrectly said that the “meat” of the forearm has nothing to do with putting the foot down. bangs head against desk
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897399]
Sorry, I don’t know about Kinesiology, I just go by what I have read in medical texts, not holistic stuff like Kinesiology.[/QUOTE]
You made my day!!!
And my point for me.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8897378]
This is just so wrong.
I am glad for the horse’s sake you got lucky and nothing bad happened, but that does not mean this is an intelligent, (or compassionate) thing to do.
For me, this discredits you as a trainer, teacher, and a horseman.[/QUOTE]
You are entitled to your opinion.
Here, enjoy some photos while you pat your judgmental self in the back.
https://www.facebook.com/andrea.whiting1/media_set?set=a.1704353402603.2092340.1051037955&type=3
[QUOTE=csaper58;8897358]
The ‘meat on top of the forearm’ is what would allow the horse to control the descent of the foot and how hard it contacts the ground.
If I have an empty 5 gal bucket resting on the ground beside me, and I pick it up and attempt to set it 2 feet in front of me I can set it gently on the ground.
If I, with my skinny arms, try that same thing with a 5 gal bucket filled with water, it develops momentum I can not control, and ‘smacks the ground’.[/QUOTE]
Water weighs 8.3+ pounds per gallon. So a 5 gallon bucket weighs roughly 40 pounds. And humans over 200 pounds?
Comparing to a 1,000 pound horse wearing a shoe?
A tad bit exaggerated, perhaps?
And if you have ever seen a football fullback in a ballet class (to improve balance and flexibility per the coach) you realize that ‘meat’ does limit range of motion in comparison to a slender dancer.
As for the chains, you can have a big link chain that look big and mean and heavy…and it weighs next to nothing. I paid a lot of money for my big hollow chains and I think they weigh about 4 ounces. Big and hollow…
And again, the chains are not meant to cause pain, they are meant to be used to condition the horse in training and in warm ups. They are not shown with chains.
I’ve also seen the feet, in the flesh in both breeds. The stacks are not the same as the TWH folks use but they are awfully similar. Watching the horses work it was clear to me that the reason for the visual similarity was functional similarity.
The claim of just “shock absorbption” is frankly incredible based upon my personal experiences and the explanations I’ve received from some very knowledgeable farriers and vets.
Guess what? We have knowledgeable farriers and vets too, and they confirm that there are shock absorbing properties.
As to “correction”, if club footing is as prevalent in Morgans and ASBs as you suggest then I think somebody needs to go back and review their breeding practices. If production of physical deformity is being encouraged in the breeding shed then you’ve got some pretty sorry humans making breeding decisions.
And that really does happen. It’s very common in some laterally gaited horse lines to have rear legs that are longer than front legs. This makes “overstride” difficult and that makes creation of exaggerated gait difficult. So breeders several decades back began to breed for “sickle hocks” as it allowed for more overstride. It also functionally weakened the rear end of the horse. That didn’t matter to the breeders as they got what they wanted. This is not to suggest that ASB or Morgan breeders want sickle hocks; it is to demonstrate that “show ring breeding” can easily depart from principles of sound conformation if that show ring breeding allows for larger human egos, and their larger gratification.
Nice, try…we do not breed for club feet. Nor do we breed for low backs, but they crop up as recessive traits here and there. Our gene pools that we work with are very small and there are fewer than 2000 registered get each year for both saddlebreds and morgans. When dealing with such a small gene pool it is hard to breed out some of these traits that are recessive in pretty much the entire breed.
Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabs etc. do NOT breed for sickle hocks or any kind of overstride. We do not want overstride in any of our gaits, so your basis of knowledge does not apply to what we do.
I’ve read your subsequent posts and looked at the photos. I particularly compared several of the SS horses to the WB horses. I’m not sure what the point of this is. The SS horses were all “parked out” to one degree or another and that stance is a wonderful way to hide conformational defects. Was there some other point?
The photos of the saddle seat horses and the warmbloods and TB were to show front end conformation, not hind end conformation.
[QUOTE=GoodTimes;8897419]
I wasn’t going to comment on this thread but this comment just shows how ignorant you are.
Kinesiology is the interrelationship between physiological processes and anatomy during movement. Ever heard the term biomechanics? I’m guessing not…
Although I should have known when you incorrectly said that the “meat” of the forearm has nothing to do with putting the foot down. bangs head against desk[/QUOTE]
The meat ABOVE and IN Front of the forearm…namely the pectorals.
Of course muscles in the forearm control the up and down movement of the leg, it is the huge amounts of meat that are balance IN FRONT and ABOVE the forearm that limit the horse.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897399]
Sorry, I don’t know about Kinesiology, I just go by what I have read in medical texts, not holistic stuff like Kinesiology.
Pectoral muscles are muscles for adduction. They pull the leg forward.[/QUOTE]
Love the edit.
But you are even more wrong now. Pecs have nothing to do with the arc of motion of the leg that you were initially discussing.
Please get some real education.
There were a few interesting threads some time ago showing ASBs in sport horse disciplines and most would have a hard time guessing the breed from the photo. Borealis is a prime example. What I also find fascinating is the trend towards this front end conformation in dressage horses which are rewarding more extreme extravagant front end motion. Lauries Crusador was an influential Thoroughbred dressage sire and if I had to guess his breed from his photo I would have thought there was a good chance of him being ASB. Many other top sires exhibit the upright neck, laid back shoulder and more vertical humerus. This conformation as you said leaves less horse in front of the support column of the front leg which means more weight distributed to the hind end and less weight and concussion on the forelimbs.
This is also seen in top jumpers which allows them to easily snap their front legs up to clear the fence but not so in hunters where is impedes the desired “daisy cutter” movement.
The interesting thing with laid back shoulders and the matching sloping pasterns is that the hoof should have a corresponding lower angle to match, not more wedges.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8897417]
I’ve also seen the feet, in the flesh in both breeds. The stacks are not the same as the TWH folks use but they are awfully similar. Watching the horses work it was clear to me that the reason for the visual similarity was functional similarity.
G.[/QUOTE]
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w441/updownupdowntrot/Shoes/twhsaddlebred1.jpg
You think that these are similar and function similarly? LOLOLOL
I know that that TWH shoe is not a currently legal shoe, but still! LOL and that shoe on the Right is probably one of the biggest packages I have ever used and came off of a saddlebred Show Pleasure horse.
Here is the same saddlebred shoe compared to what I typically use on my horses. This time the right shoe is a Morgan English Pleasure shoe.
http://s1076.photobucket.com/user/updownupdowntrot/media/Shoes/asbmor1.jpg.html
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