American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

[D_BaldStockings]

I cannot support the amended PAST act for this portion alone, as it would put many horses in many disciplines out of the show ring:

"Paragraph (b)(19) of §?11.2 currently prohibits lead or other weights to be attached to the outside of the hoof wall, the outside surface of the horseshoe, or any portion of the pad except the bottom surface within the horseshoe. It also states that pads may not be hollowed out for the purpose of inserting or affixing weights, and weights may not extend below the bearing surface of the shoe. Paragraph (b)(19) also prohibits hollow shoes or artificial extensions filled with mercury or similar substances.

We propose to redesignate paragraph (b)(19) of §?11.2 as paragraph (a)(8) and remove references to pads in this paragraph. As we explain above, their use would be prohibited under the proposed regulations at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction. We would also remove the exception that allows the practice of adding weights to the bottom surface within the horseshoe because we have determined that such weights can be used in ways that can cause soring."

Yes, there ARE Endurance horses and Grand Prix Jumpers and Dressage horses that show in pads. Single pads, perhaps, but pads nonetheless.

Just because one might believe that ‘no enforcement would happen in those disciplines’ doesn’t make outlawing sensible farrier practice a good idea; to STOP POSSIBLE ABUSE THAT IS SORING.

Making a sensible practice illegal is assumptive, peremptory and high-handed.
Especially when done by persons who have limited knowledge of farriery, the equine industry and shoeing technology as it has progressed to today.

Do you think these would ‘pass’ based on the written rules?
http://trailridermag.com/content/content/15019/asset_upload_file517_2523.jpg

Or these
http://www.renegadehoofboots.com/images/Boot-Fit/lateral-view-proper.jpg
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/images/renegade-hoof-boot.gif

Complete coverage of the sole… no chance. Too bad Endurance riders.

Oh, look. An ‘illegal’ bar shoe with pad. But wait this one is therapeutic…
http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_practical_application_bar_shoes.htm

A Grand Prix jumper in full training with an unusual hoof problem.
Do we need a vet dispensation note now?
http://www.vettec.com/content/white-line-disease-and-vettec-adhere-repair

Yeah, I’m sure the authors of the PAST amendments ‘know’ all about the correct uses of pads and ‘artificial materials’ and responsibly banned them all.
http://www.vettec.com/blog-type/comfort-and-support-trail

some farriers shoe some hunters with pads
https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/653-the-farriers-role-in-enhancing-hunter-and-jumper-performance

No. I do not sore horses.

IF all sored horses are lame?
Well, there is a very easy way to identify their abusers so you can punish them.

True, you can use a pad as part of soring. But should that make the 99% of other users of pads for legitimate reasons a targeted group labeled ‘potential abusers’?

Not on your life.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8897365]
And, when trimmed correctly, the degree of rotation is decreased. I have a horse here, right now, whose show shoes I still have around. He has an upright left front foot. When shod for show, with pads and bands, he has a pretty decent dish in that foot. He beat his shoes off on the ride to Lexington, KY, from the farm in SW KY, where I bought him from. Some of his foot is still in that shoe.

Now, he has a foot with lovely open heels, no dish, and angles that match the other front foot.

Amazing how that can happen.[/QUOTE]

Actually what she means is the arm is at a straighter angle in a saddleseat horse than in a hunter type horse. This is in relation to a laid back shoulder thus the forearms are closer to the front of the chest. Or as we describe closer to the corners.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8897536]
I cannot support the amended PAST act for this portion alone, as it would put many horses in many disciplines out of the show ring:

"Paragraph (b)(19) of §?11.2 currently prohibits lead or other weights to be attached to the outside of the hoof wall, the outside surface of the horseshoe, or any portion of the pad except the bottom surface within the horseshoe. It also states that pads may not be hollowed out for the purpose of inserting or affixing weights, and weights may not extend below the bearing surface of the shoe. Paragraph (b)(19) also prohibits hollow shoes or artificial extensions filled with mercury or similar substances.

We propose to redesignate paragraph (b)(19) of §?11.2 as paragraph (a)(8) and remove references to pads in this paragraph. As we explain above, their use would be prohibited under the proposed regulations at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction. We would also remove the exception that allows the practice of adding weights to the bottom surface within the horseshoe because we have determined that such weights can be used in ways that can cause soring."

Yes, there ARE Endurance horses and Grand Prix Jumpers and Dressage horses that show in pads. Single pads, perhaps, but pads nonetheless.

Just because one might believe that ‘no enforcement would happen in those disciplines’ doesn’t make outlawing sensible farrier practice a good idea; to STOP POSSIBLE ABUSE THAT IS SORING.

Making a sensible practice illegal is assumptive, peremptory and high-handed.
Especially when done by persons who have limited knowledge of farriery, the equine industry and shoeing technology as it has progressed to today.

Do you think these would ‘pass’ based on the written rules?
http://trailridermag.com/content/content/15019/asset_upload_file517_2523.jpg

Or these
http://www.renegadehoofboots.com/images/Boot-Fit/lateral-view-proper.jpg
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/images/renegade-hoof-boot.gif

Complete coverage of the sole… no chance. Too bad Endurance riders.

Oh, look. An ‘illegal’ bar shoe with pad. But wait this one is therapeutic…
http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_practical_application_bar_shoes.htm

A Grand Prix jumper in full training with an unusual hoof problem.
Do we need a vet dispensation note now?
http://www.vettec.com/content/white-line-disease-and-vettec-adhere-repair

Yeah, I’m sure the authors of the PAST amendments ‘know’ all about the correct uses of pads and ‘artificial materials’ and responsibly banned them all.
http://www.vettec.com/blog-type/comfort-and-support-trail

some farriers shoe some hunters with pads
https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/653-the-farriers-role-in-enhancing-hunter-and-jumper-performance

No. I do not sore horses.

IF all sored horses are lame?
Well, there is a very easy way to identify their abusers so you can punish them.

True, you can use a pad as part of soring. But should that make the 99% of other users of pads for legitimate reasons a targeted group labeled ‘potential abusers’?

Not on your life.[/QUOTE]

I had similar concerns.

It has been established earlier in this thread, that yes, therapeutic shoes and pads will be legal.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8897466]
As for the chains, you can have a big link chain that look big and mean and heavy…and it weighs next to nothing. I paid a lot of money for my big hollow chains and I think they weigh about 4 ounces. Big and hollow…

Not everyone uses hollow chains; some use the real article. I’ve seen them often enough. In ASB and Morgan barns.

And again, the chains are not meant to cause pain, they are meant to be used to condition the horse in training and in warm ups. They are not shown with chains.

This is nonsense. Of course they inflict pain; or at least discomfort. That’s WHY they work. That’s why when you take them off the very quickly quit working. Physics, in this case, is not a matter of opinion.

Guess what? We have knowledgeable farriers and vets too, and they confirm that there are shock absorbing properties.

I’m sure you do. So the Big Lick Walker folks.

Nice, try…we do not breed for club feet. Nor do we breed for low backs, but they crop up as recessive traits here and there. Our gene pools that we work with are very small and there are fewer than 2000 registered get each year for both saddlebreds and morgans. When dealing with such a small gene pool it is hard to breed out some of these traits that are recessive in pretty much the entire breed.

Perhaps not but if you’re getting a lot of them then you’re willing to take big chances in the “genetic lottery.” A small gene pool dramatically increases the risks of such genetic misadventures. My comments stand.

Saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabs etc. do NOT breed for sickle hocks or any kind of overstride. We do not want overstride in any of our gaits, so your basis of knowledge does not apply to what we do.

Never said they did; I used the example as an illustration of breeding decisions that have negative consequences.

The photos of the saddle seat horses and the warmbloods and TB were to show front end conformation, not hind end conformation.[/QUOTE]

Parked out horses make for poor conformation examples.

G.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8897682]
I had similar concerns.

It has been established earlier in this thread, that yes, therapeutic shoes and pads will be legal.[/QUOTE]

Farriers are not Vets.

They are not permitted to ‘diagnose’ ‘prescribe’ or determine whether a shoe or shoe substitute is ‘therapeutic’.

This leaves them open to legal action if they are not working under the supervision of a Veterinarian.

If you decide to make them able to determine whether shoes are therapeutic, then see how many disagree with the shoes chosen by different farriers.

And what if an owner decides to use a type of shoe? They cannot apply it themselves and ask their farrier to do so.

How much does that put him at risk?

[roseymare]

This was a question as well that I had. Wiill prescriptions be required for therapeutic?
And does therapeutic include uses for prevantative measures?

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8897896]
Farriers are not Vets.

Correct.

They are not permitted to ‘diagnose’ ‘prescribe’ or determine whether a shoe or shoe substitute is ‘therapeutic’.

It’s possible that “therapeutic” in any given circumstance will be a finding based upon the facts presented. That determination will be made after the fact. If the farrier applies a shoe that will sore the horse then they should be held responsible.

This leaves them open to legal action if they are not working under the supervision of a Veterinarian.

If they are in the business of engaging in soring behavior so they might. Indeed that could even happen if they are working under the direction of a vet. The letters DVM do not carry with them a right to sore up a horse. At this point you might want to Google Dr. Hiltrud Strasser.

If you decide to make them able to determine whether shoes are therapeutic, then see how many disagree with the shoes chosen by different farriers.

Questions of fact.

And what if an owner decides to use a type of shoe? They cannot apply it themselves and ask their farrier to do so.

If the shoe is likely to sore the horse the owner SHOULD be held responsible.

How much does that put him at risk?[/QUOTE]

Depends on the facts.

G.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8897670]
Actually what she means is the arm is at a straighter angle in a saddleseat horse than in a hunter type horse. This is in relation to a laid back shoulder thus the forearms are closer to the front of the chest. Or as we describe closer to the corners.[/QUOTE]

I understand completely.

The horse I am describing was the high selling horse at his farm’s dispersal, and is by a RWGC. He won as a three year old gaited horse. He is conformed correctly to be a show horse- AND a sport horse.

I really do get it. Honestly! :lol:

[Lady_Eboshi]

And I say this as someone who has owned 3 flat-shod or barefoot TWH’s:

(1) No horse on earth exhibits “high action” such as seen in shows naturally.

(2) Such is effected by devices which elicit same via varying degrees of intentionally inflicted systematically-applied discomfort.

(3) The ethical question then becomes whether or not it is “OK” to elicit unnatural movement via the use of devices which intentionally inflict enough discomfort to elicit the said unnatural gait.

(4) This is done for reasons of human vanity and/or money, no practical reason exists to do it at all. It is a “style,” not a use.

(5) So we NEED to do this WHY, exactly? Change the judging criteria to something that reflects animal husbandry ethics of the current century, and the need to do it is eliminated! The pads, packages, chains, rollers, tail-sets, the whole nine yards! Just like we got rid of the “bearing reins” of the 19th century that were forcing carriage horses to pull with their toplines inverted.

The fact that anyone who “loves” horses PROTESTS this boggles my mind!

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8897729]
Parked out horses make for poor conformation examples.

G.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Here are some squared up examples of front end conformation of saddleseat horses both now and “then”

Holland’s Golden Playboy

Daydream’s Premier Night

King’s Genius

Monte Cristo 59
[URL=“https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/aa/da/11/aada1161b1a8c8505af6b5df87a3e884.jpg”]
Kentucky Choice

[Amwrider]

More and more Equine organizations are coming out against the HPA. If this passes, there will be lawsuits specifically because the HPA changes are in violation of Presidential Executive Orders 12866 and 13563 and the verbiage is arbitrary and capricious…the proposed changes exceed the scope of what the HPA was meant for when it was signed into law.

Letter from the USEF to USDA opposing the changes to the HPA
http://www.usefnetwork.com/news/14435/2016/10/4/usef_submits_comment_on_usdas_prop.aspx

American Horse Council opposes the changes to the HPA
http://www.horsecouncil.org/press-release/ahc-statement-proposed-horse-protection-act-regulations/

Letter from the United Professional Horseman’s Association to the USDA opposing the changes to the HPA
http://files.constantcontact.com/d160190d001/9a55316f-9856-4745-bff8-c55e3a7da349.pdf

American Saddlebred Horse Association opposes the HPA proposed changes
https://www.asha.net/horseprotection

American Morgan Horse Association opposes the HOA Revisions
http://www.morganhorse.com/media-events/news/article/10053/

Letter from the Arabian Horse Association to the USDA
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/AHA-Letter---Position-Statement-Concerning-HPA.html?soid=1102546521474&aid=gbxSrj7mFoQ

American Farrier’s Journal opposes the changes to the HPA
https://www.americanfarriers.com/blogs/1-from-the-desk-of-afj/post/8632-weekly

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8898263]
I agree. Here are some squared up examples of front end conformation of saddleseat horses both now and “then”

Holland’s Golden Playboy

Daydream’s Premier Night

King’s Genius

Monte Cristo 59
[URL=“https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/aa/da/11/aada1161b1a8c8505af6b5df87a3e884.jpg”]
Kentucky Choice[/QUOTE]

This is one of my favorite older photos: a 3/4 brother to Bourbon King named King Chieftain. He is lovely!
http://theamericansaddlebred.blogspot.com/2014/08/81714-bourbon-chief.html

[Amwrider]

This was our ASB sporthorse. You can see from his conformation why he did not excel in the saddle seat divisions. His neck ties in too low on his chest, his shoulder doesn’t quite lay back enough, and he is “meaty” above his foreleg in front of his shoulder. He couldn’t comfortably put his head where it needed to be in order to trot up and out.

He placed very well in the Opportunity classes for dressage suitability and I had a dressage person pursuing purchase for a while, this dressage trainer thought he could get Gussie to at least Prix St. George level. We did not sell, he was my niece’s and my boyfriend’s baby. He is 23 now.

But anyways, here is a non-parked out photo of saddlebred conformation that doesn’t work for the saddle seat divisions but is still quite handsomely put together and with a yummy up-hill build.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3693411767819&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4910052263071&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater

[Amwrider]

The Equestrian Professional website hosted a live webinar on Monday on the HPA and the proposed changes. The Webinar is recorded and you can listen to it here.

http://www.equestrianprofessional.com/public/Live-Webinar-Understanding-the-Proposed-Changes-to-The-Horse-Protection-Act.cfm

[earsup]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8897417]
I’ve actually walked down more than one ASB barn aisle and used to stay overnight on trips west at a very pricy, very well set up Morgan show barn. I’ve seen what’s in the tack rooms. The chains ranged from light plastic to rather heavy, metal links. I’ve never seen your tack room so I have no idea what you have or don’t have.

I’ve also seen the feet, in the flesh in both breeds. The stacks are not the same as the TWH folks use but they are awfully similar. Watching the horses work it was clear to me that the reason for the visual similarity was functional similarity.

G.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned looking at the feet so that you could see there are no rubs, scars etc from using action devices. I believe you indicated these types of marks as evidence of cruelty. As for what you might have seen in in a tack room, I may have a gun in my house, but unless I shoot a person with it, I haven’t done anything cruel or illegal.

And, I’m not certain how you could think a thin pad/wedge is visually similar to a TWH stack that might be 5 inches tall, but regardless, assuming functional similarity seems erronious. TWHs are build and move completely differently that trotting breeds. It always amazes me that people confuse the two–it’s like comparing a basset hound with schnauzer.

Do you really see a similarity between the TWH that bobs it’s head with every stride and the very upright, steady carriage of the trotting breeds? And the four-beat gait of a TWH is completely different from either a trot or a slow gait/rack.

Just a quick look at how a padded TWH carries itself shows a completley different set of mechanics that what one sees in a trotting breed.

My point is, why would you assume functional similarity exist between the types of pads when the confirmation and gaits executed are functionally so different?

[earsup]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8897371]
The very same ASBs that make show horses can also be sport horses. In order to win at the very top- you need a vertical neckset- the other conformation factors remain the same. Over time, working with their head and necks up, as opposed to working long and low, the upright musculature develops. Backs drop, undersides of necks become pronounced. Croups flatten.

If you want to rebuild a topline- you need a year. Then, they do not look like the same horses, at all.

This has been one of the fallacies that makes it hard for people to look at show horses, and understand that they can be brilliant sport horses. Most people conceptualize poorly.

Read the second piece on my blog. It explains a lot.[/QUOTE]

Yes–THIS!!! Agree completely… I wish more people could understand what you’ve just articulated so well.

I have a living, breathing example standing in his stall right now (night turnout lol).

[earsup]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8898038]
And I say this as someone who has owned 3 flat-shod or barefoot TWH’s:

(1) No horse on earth exhibits “high action” such as seen in shows naturally.

(2) Such is effected by devices which elicit same via varying degrees of intentionally inflicted systematically-applied discomfort.

(3) The ethical question then becomes whether or not it is “OK” to elicit unnatural movement via the use of devices which intentionally inflict enough discomfort to elicit the said unnatural gait.

(4) This is done for reasons of human vanity and/or money, no practical reason exists to do it at all. It is a “style,” not a use.

(5) So we NEED to do this WHY, exactly? Change the judging criteria to something that reflects animal husbandry ethics of the current century, and the need to do it is eliminated! The pads, packages, chains, rollers, tail-sets, the whole nine yards! Just like we got rid of the “bearing reins” of the 19th century that were forcing carriage horses to pull with their toplines inverted.

The fact that anyone who “loves” horses PROTESTS this boggles my mind![/QUOTE]

This is just absolutely wrong. I can imagine that no TWH exhibits high action naturally, but ASBs are a completly different type of horse… google for some photos of ASB foals. You’ll see your natural action, exhibited without shoes and by animals not old enough to have even had training, let alone be impacted by use of action devices.

https://www.facebook.com/americansaddlebred/photos/a.10150228795466784.321654.33470221783/10152500519951784/?type=3

[gypsymare]

It’s more telling to see who does support it… the AVMA. The one organization most concerned with horse welfare that will not get hit in the wallet if it passes.

We’ve already established that therapeutic pads will be allowed, and maybe the language does need clarification, that’s the whole point of a comment period. If your horse really needs support from concussion then talk to your farrier about some of the newer impression materials and pour in pads. Or cut down those overgrown contracted feet and let the heels expand and the frog contact the ground as nearly every other performance horse does.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898532]
This was our ASB sporthorse. You can see from his conformation why he did not excel in the saddle seat divisions. His neck ties in too low on his chest, his shoulder doesn’t quite lay back enough, and he is “meaty” above his foreleg in front of his shoulder. He couldn’t comfortably put his head where it needed to be in order to trot up and out.

He placed very well in the Opportunity classes for dressage suitability and I had a dressage person pursuing purchase for a while, this dressage trainer thought he could get Gussie to at least Prix St. George level. We did not sell, he was my niece’s and my boyfriend’s baby. He is 23 now.

But anyways, here is a non-parked out photo of saddlebred conformation that doesn’t work for the saddle seat divisions but is still quite handsomely put together and with a yummy up-hill build.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3693411767819&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4910052263071&set=a.1085478811125.2015494.1051037955&type=3&theater[/QUOTE]

He’s beautiful.

Even if not parked out a lot of the trotting breeds are photographed with their neck straight up just as hunters are encouraged to stretch out horizontally and arch. My ASB rescue liked to hang his very long neck straight out like a hunter when given a choice on a loose rein and his shoulder was quite steep. Probably why he ended up Amished and dumped in a kill pen with his mane and tail hacked off.

[Amwrider]

The AVMA membership is torn up over this because a great many of them do NOT agree with the position its board has taken.

And yes, vets will profit if this is passed because there will be more lamenesses…tendon issues, navicular issues, pedal osteitis and more.