American Morgan Horse Assoc. opposes Horse Protection Act?

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898633]
The AVMA membership is torn up over this because a great many of them do NOT agree with the position its board has taken.

And yes, vets will profit if this is passed because there will be more lamenesses…tendon issues, navicular issues, pedal osteitis and more.[/QUOTE]

You cannot possibly prove this. It has no bearing in fact whatsoever, but the sad thing is, you will rant and rave all day long to try and stand on your principles.

Principles are fine- when, as you say you are not wrong in your facts. You simply are.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=earsup;8898578]
I mentioned looking at the feet so that you could see there are no rubs, scars etc from using action devices. I believe you indicated these types of marks as evidence of cruelty. As for what you might have seen in in a tack room, I may have a gun in my house, but unless I shoot a person with it, I haven’t done anything cruel or illegal.

Seeing no rubs or scars on a photo means little. They can be covered by “makeup” or the photo staged such that they don’t show. Only an actual examination would tell.

And, I’m not certain how you could think a thin pad/wedge is visually similar to a TWH stack that might be 5 inches tall, but regardless, assuming functional similarity seems erronious. TWHs are build and move completely differently that trotting breeds. It always amazes me that people confuse the two–it’s like comparing a basset hound with schnauzer.

I didn’t see “thin wedge pads.” I saw stacks. I know the difference between the two.

Do you really see a similarity between the TWH that bobs it’s head with every stride and the very upright, steady carriage of the trotting breeds? And the four-beat gait of a TWH is completely different from either a trot or a slow gait/rack.

Never said I did.

Just a quick look at how a padded TWH carries itself shows a completley different set of mechanics that what one sees in a trotting breed.

True enough.

My point is, why would you assume functional similarity exist between the types of pads when the confirmation and gaits executed are functionally so different?[/QUOTE]

Because the physics is the same on both. I’ve explained. You may disagree or not but that’s the way I see it.

Oh, and for those that keep saying these devices are somehow necessary to get lots of front end action I have small offering from 1935:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulyaoH-cEs

G.

[roseymare]

When the AVMA firat came out in support of the PAST so did some of the other organizations that now are against it.
They have not polled members.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8898665]
You cannot possibly prove this. It has no bearing in fact whatsoever, but the sad thing is, you will rant and rave all day long to try and stand on your principles.

Principles are fine- when, as you say you are not wrong in your facts. You simply are.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that if horses with underrun heels cant have a wedged pad…

there will not be the potential for damage to the suspensory apparatus?

They will not be more prone to navicular injuries?

They will not be more prone to road founder as a result of stretching of the white line at the toe from having a low heel and long toe?

There will not be more incidence of pedal osteitis becoming more degenerative?

There will not be more incidence of bruised soles?

Really? You don’t think that this will happen if pads are banned from competition horses? You don’t think there will be more calls to veterinarians to examine lameness?

Oh! But THERAPEUTIC pads would be allowed, right? So who exactly determines that the pad or shoe is therapeutic? THE VETERINARIAN …and they will charge for the visit.

So no, I don’t see how the AVMA can profit from the HPA…LOL

and as for the members of the AVMA being in conflict, I have spoken to people in the AVMA corporate offices who confirm that the public support statement is disagreed with by a large portion of its membership.

[red_mares]

@gypsymare;8898617

It’s more telling to see who does support it… the AVMA. The one organization most concerned with horse welfare that will not get hit in the wallet if it passes.

The fact that AVMA supports this does not mean it is a good idea or that most vets support it.

The AMA supported Obamacare when a large portion of it’s membership disagreed with the legislation. AARP supported Obamacare when large numbers of it’s members opposed it.

The fact that a lobbying organization supports a bill or regulation does not mean that it’s rank and file membership do or would benefit from it.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8898688]
Because the physics is the same on both. I’ve explained. You may disagree or not but that’s the way I see it.

Oh, and for those that keep saying these devices are somehow necessary to get lots of front end action I have small offering from 1935:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulyaoH-cEs

G.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think a single trotting person on here has said that pads are needed to achieve lots of front end action.

We have been saying that conformation, athletic ability of the horse, the rider’s hands and the use of the rider’s seat are what make motion. I have said over and over that I have pads on my little Arabian lesson horse who could cut the grass if I put a blade on his toe. Pads do not make motion where there isn’t already the ability.

The Walking horses, stack up the front end because they want AS MUCH WEIGHT on the back end of the horse as possible. This is so they can carry their weight on the back end while the sored front end can snatch up off the ground and have little weight bearing while in gait. They want that back end to sink down…note that all the big lick horses show with breast collars to keep the saddles from sliding backwards on the horse because their hind end is so much lower than the front end.

You do not see breast collars on any trotting breeds. We want a four-cornered trot, not a sinking back end.

[gypsymare]

Time and time again we see severely overgrown toes and tall contracted heels wearing wedges. You know how else you fix those angles? Cut down those toes!

[Amwrider]

I just listened to the webinar and there was an interesting point brought up.

The HPA proposed changes DOES exclude some activities…namely racing and rodeo. So why doesn’t it also exclude jumping? Dressage? Reining?

If this is ONLY supposed to apply to RELATED BREEDS and HORSES THAT EXHOBOT WITH AN ACCENTUATED GAIT then why are those disciplines not also included in the exclusions?

…because the legislation will be applied to you also.

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;8898739]
Time and time again we see severely overgrown toes and tall contracted heels wearing wedges. You know how else you fix those angles? Cut down those toes![/QUOTE]

If the toe is long and the heels are tall, that doesn’t mean that there is a problem with the angles. You can maintain the angle of the hoof even if the hoof is grown out.

A 52 degree angle is still a 52 degree angle no matter the length of the hoof…just sayin’

[Amwrider]

Excerpts from the book “Lameness: recognizing and treating the horse’s most common ailment”
copyright 1997 by Equine Research - 2005 paperback edition

Chapter 7 Hoof Conformation and Shoeing Options P. 229

“The most obvious benefit of a pad which covers the underside of the foot is that it protect the sole from direct trauma. I the pad is made of a rigid material it can also direct the ground forces away from the sole to the wall. Pads may be made of leather, synthetic ma…terials (plastic, rubber, etc.) or metal. The firmer the pad material, the better the sole is protected, and the more the ground forces are directed away from the sole. Pads (whether full sole or rim) can also help reduce concussion. The more “give” the material has, the more concussion is absorbed and dispersed by the pad.”
“Pads can be used in many situations, both preventative and therapeutic”

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898752]
Excerpts from the book “Lameness: recognizing and treating the horse’s most common ailment”
copyright 1997 by Equine Research - 2005 paperback edition

Chapter 7 Hoof Conformation and Shoeing Options P. 229

“The most obvious benefit of a pad which covers the underside of the foot is that it protect the sole from direct trauma. I the pad is made of a rigid material it can also direct the ground forces away from the sole to the wall. Pads may be made of leather, synthetic ma…terials (plastic, rubber, etc.) or metal. The firmer the pad material, the better the sole is protected, and the more the ground forces are directed away from the sole. Pads (whether full sole or rim) can also help reduce concussion. The more “give” the material has, the more concussion is absorbed and dispersed by the pad.”
“Pads can be used in many situations, both preventative and therapeutic”[/QUOTE]

Well, duh. I have been saying right along that a pad may protect a horse from contact with debris on the ground- “direct trauma”. But a plastic pad, or a leather pad, offer nothing useful in reducing trauma in the way that you are trying to believe that they do. There ARE specific pads made for these uses- but the Show Horse world isn’t looking to protect the foot, as a main purpose for using pads. They want to be able to ADD length- and height- in length of foot, as well as stacking pads. To the extent that the TWHs do? I hope not. But the think about this entire charade with ASHA, UPHA, etc, is that they DO NOT want to admit what they are doing. They just want it to be passed over “because our horses trot”. Sorry, but there are some crappy things done to the horses, and they need to stop.

These organizations are so desperate to hold on to their artificial tactics, at any price, that they simply will not willingly move into a world without them.

And that, I find simply nauseating.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898743]
If the toe is long and the heels are tall, that doesn’t mean that there is a problem with the angles. You can maintain the angle of the hoof even if the hoof is grown out.

A 52 degree angle is still a 52 degree angle no matter the length of the hoof…just sayin’[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is the same angle, but the greater the active length of toe is, the greater the stress on the hoof as well as limb, shoulder, etc.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898743]
If the toe is long and the heels are tall, that doesn’t mean that there is a problem with the angles. You can maintain the angle of the hoof even if the hoof is grown out.

A 52 degree angle is still a 52 degree angle no matter the length of the hoof…just sayin’[/QUOTE]
Technically true but why defend grown out hooves? Do you see the threads where the pitchforks come out because a farrier left 1/8" too much heel? But it’s just accepted that these horses have to accept feet grown out an extra inch or more and severely contracted heels and that’s somehow ok? Without the bands those shoes would come flying off and take a good portion of the hoofwall with it. Not because of the breeds extreme movement but because it is overgrown to such an extreme and there is no healthy laminar attachment past the live sole plane.

[D_BaldStockings]

The HPA does NOT address natural hoof length AT ALL.

Arguing about long vs. short toe length of grown hoof horn is irrelevant to the usefulness of the amendment.

If a horse is not sore, but wears a shoe with a pad that is listed in a farriery supply as ‘reducing concussion’ or ‘protective’
Who gets to decide that this IS or ISN’T a violation of the ‘no pad except therapeutic’ rule.

Might it be a case of how high the horse steps and if the rider happens to be in SS togs on a flat saddle?

I see lawsuits ahead for discriminatory and arbitrary and prejudicial rulings.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898731]
I don’t think a single trotting person on here has said that pads are needed to achieve lots of front end action.

We have been saying that conformation, athletic ability of the horse, the rider’s hands and the use of the rider’s seat are what make motion. I have said over and over that I have pads on my little Arabian lesson horse who could cut the grass if I put a blade on his toe. Pads do not make motion where there isn’t already the ability.

The Walking horses, stack up the front end because they want AS MUCH WEIGHT on the back end of the horse as possible. This is so they can carry their weight on the back end while the sored front end can snatch up off the ground and have little weight bearing while in gait. They want that back end to sink down…note that all the big lick horses show with breast collars to keep the saddles from sliding backwards on the horse because their hind end is so much lower than the front end.

You do not see breast collars on any trotting breeds. We want a four-cornered trot, not a sinking back end.[/QUOTE]

I know what the opponents of the proposed rules have said. I disagree with what they have said.

G.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898706]
So you are saying that if horses with underrun heels cant have a wedged pad…

there will not be the potential for damage to the suspensory apparatus?

They will not be more prone to navicular injuries?

They will not be more prone to road founder as a result of stretching of the white line at the toe from having a low heel and long toe?

There will not be more incidence of pedal osteitis becoming more degenerative?

There will not be more incidence of bruised soles?

Really? You don’t think that this will happen if pads are banned from competition horses? You don’t think there will be more calls to veterinarians to examine lameness?

Oh! But THERAPEUTIC pads would be allowed, right? So who exactly determines that the pad or shoe is therapeutic? THE VETERINARIAN …and they will charge for the visit.

So no, I don’t see how the AVMA can profit from the HPA…LOL

and as for the members of the AVMA being in conflict, I have spoken to people in the AVMA corporate offices who confirm that the public support statement is disagreed with by a large portion of its membership.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you have only dealt with under run heels in a way that doesn’t actually eradicate them. Out in the world that doesn’t depend on pads, we take a horses toe back underneath of them, and allow the heels to be supported. The lack of toe length keeps the suspensories intact, and the posterior support actually helps to get them off of those poor heels.

If the Veterinarians determine that pad is need for therapeutic purposes, then the horse will have them. A pour in pad works so much better for actually supporting a horses sole, and protecting it- and, in conjunction with ONE thin pad, for support of the pad material, can have useful application on certain types of foot issues. No question.

So, if you have a horse with a PROBLEM, then yes, the Vet comes out- but most of the issues you are describing are in fact caused by the type of shoeing that you are supporting. Or, if not caused directly, they certainly are not ameliorated. So, having a blacksmith who knows what they are doing- without gimmicks, or the necessity of adding action issues to the equation, can actually fix the issue at it’s core, and move on…

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;8898731]
I don’t think a single trotting person on here has said that pads are needed to achieve lots of front end action.

We have been saying that conformation, athletic ability of the horse, the rider’s hands and the use of the rider’s seat are what make motion. I have said over and over that I have pads on my little Arabian lesson horse who could cut the grass if I put a blade on his toe. Pads do not make motion where there isn’t already the ability.

The Walking horses, stack up the front end because they want AS MUCH WEIGHT on the back end of the horse as possible. This is so they can carry their weight on the back end while the sored front end can snatch up off the ground and have little weight bearing while in gait. They want that back end to sink down…note that all the big lick horses show with breast collars to keep the saddles from sliding backwards on the horse because their hind end is so much lower than the front end.

You do not see breast collars on any trotting breeds. We want a four-cornered trot, not a sinking back end.[/QUOTE]

Well, I HAVE been saying that they put a bunch of shoes, foot and pads on some horses, to try and make more out of them. I offered two examples.

Fine harness horses are generally- but not always- shod up more than a walk-trot, or a gaited horse because they are driven. Getting motion out of a horse you aren’t riding is a different thing.

And yes, we do use breast collars on hunters (breast plate) jumpers (several different kinds) event horses, endurance horses, western horses, horses that have issues that slide a saddle back because of conformation. Smith Lilly- who made that comment in his speech- is simply wrong. I love me some Smith- but this isn’t a correct theory. In fact it is so wrong, it is laughable. You just cannot use a blanket statement that is so faulty, and expect it to float by anyone who is paying attention.

[D_BaldStockings]

There is a genetic component to the ability and desire to step high:

Saddlebred over cavaletti
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20eHvFas9Zg/T0J7IF2z_iI/AAAAAAAABJc/krqmz6U9kgw/s1600/2.jpg

Another horse over cavaletti
http://www.elite-equicare.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/images.jpg

Some are born with the ability; but a trainer still has to be able to train the horse to bring it out on cue.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/97/e5/97/97e597f67228506f68bebf7acd433084.jpg

[D_BaldStockings]

I can see many farriers NOT shoeing horses appropriately to their needs because of fear of being tripped up by the new rules.
And not wanting to have every shoeing ‘wrinkle’ signed off on by an observing vet (who may or not have any lameness expertise; you think they are going to be lining up to approve custom shoeing needs when this could result in them being targeted?).

That would actually end up in horses becoming sore because they aren’t being shod in the best way possible…
…unintended consequences.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;8898688]
Because the physics is the same on both. I’ve explained. You may disagree or not but that’s the way I see it.

Oh, and for those that keep saying these devices are somehow necessary to get lots of front end action I have small offering from 1935:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HulyaoH-cEs

G.[/QUOTE]

G.

Do not look into how they ‘cue’ for Capriole; you would not approve.

Passage is about suspension, not leg lift, so a bit of apples and oranges there.
Enjoyable video, though.