This is on the farrier supply website under pads /therapeutic solutions.
http://www.well-shod.com/catalog.php?category[0]=Pads+%2F+Therapeutic+Solutions
Apparently farriers have believed in shock protection, environmental protection and thin sole protection for some time now. Pages and pages of them.
Yeah, they are ALL therapeutic. So what is the point of a ruling eliminating pads?
They will all be ‘allowed’ anyway by this therapeutic standard of use.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8898970]
This is on the farrier supply website under pads /therapeutic solutions.
http://www.well-shod.com/catalog.php?category[0]=Pads+%2F+Therapeutic+Solutions
Apparently farriers have believed in shock protection, environmental protection and thin sole protection for some time now. Pages and pages of them.
Yeah, they are ALL therapeutic. So what is the point of a ruling eliminating pads?
They will all be ‘allowed’ anyway by this therapeutic standard of use.[/QUOTE]
Not in stacks, they won’t…
Nope. But you can’t hang a heavier shoe on a longer foot without a band- and those are being disallowed.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8898906]
And yes, we do use breast collars on hunters (breast plate) jumpers (several different kinds) event horses, endurance horses, western horses, horses that have issues that slide a saddle back because of conformation. Smith Lilly- who made that comment in his speech- is simply wrong. I love me some Smith- but this isn’t a correct theory. In fact it is so wrong, it is laughable. You just cannot use a blanket statement that is so faulty, and expect it to float by anyone who is paying attention.[/QUOTE]
I misspoke here, I was referring to breastcollars on saddleseat horses. I show hunters and western so I do know that they use breastcollars.
If you use a breastcollar on a saddlebred you are disqualified for illegal equipment. It happened to one of my fellow local trainers. She had a RWC 3-gaited horse who was a VERY HOT horse. She worked him at home and in shows in a western saddle because he would quite unexpectedly leap, rear, bolt etc. and without a mane, she liked having a horn to grab onto if needed. While in the show ring with her cutback saddle, she tried using a breastcollar because this horse’s leaps would often move the saddle quite a bit. She was eliminated.
You cannot use a breastcollar in any saddleseat class for saddlebreds, morgans or Arabians. You only see breastcollars in saddleseat on the walking horse breeds.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8898982]
Not in stacks, they won’t…[/QUOTE]
Where is stack defined in the HPA?
Single pad is as bad as many per HPA.
I wish they WOULD have said ‘not to exceed 3/4 inch’ or something measurable. They did not.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8898987]
Nope. But you can’t hang a heavier shoe on a longer foot without a band- and those are being disallowed.[/QUOTE]
So you will be happier with the shorter toe - heavy, likely even heavier, shoe?
You don’t think there will be innovations in toe, side and quarter clips with glue, etc. to replace bands?
No regs on shoe weight, either.
I suppose we will see what happens.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8899031]
Where is stack defined in the HPA?
Single pad is as bad as many per HPA.
I wish they WOULD have said ‘not to exceed 3/4 inch’ or something measurable. They did not.[/QUOTE]
No pads would mean…no pads. So, my point was that in replying to your “why are they banning pads, if you can use them therapeutically” was that yes, there might be A pad, but there will never be multiple pads.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8899039]
So you will be happier with the shorter toe - heavy, likely even heavier, shoe?
You don’t think there will be innovations in toe, side and quarter clips with glue, etc. to replace bands?
No regs on shoe weight, either.
I suppose we will see what happens.[/QUOTE]
There are already some regulations for some of the affected breeds. Just not ASBs. I have no question that they’ll try and figure a way around it. That would be some serious glue.
[QUOTE=earsup;8898578]
I mentioned looking at the feet so that you could see there are no rubs, scars etc from using action devices. I believe you indicated these types of marks as evidence of cruelty. As for what you might have seen in in a tack room, I may have a gun in my house, but unless I shoot a person with it, I haven’t done anything cruel or illegal.
And, I’m not certain how you could think a thin pad/wedge is visually similar to a TWH stack that might be 5 inches tall, but regardless, assuming functional similarity seems erronious. TWHs are build and move completely differently that trotting breeds. It always amazes me that people confuse the two–it’s like comparing a basset hound with schnauzer[/QUOTE]
Have you seen ASB shoeing recently? It is not just a thin wedge/pad anymore but stacks of pads. I call them “Walking Horse Lite” shoeing because it looks so similar.
Take a look. These are ASB feet.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211217991512004&set=p.10211217991512004&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211218020872738&set=p.10211218020872738&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211218001632257&set=p.10211218001632257&type=3
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8898987]
Nope. But you can’t hang a heavier shoe on a longer foot without a band- and those are being disallowed.[/QUOTE]
Yep. Without bands if you don’t properly trim down the hoof you’re going to have a whole lot of this. You can put all of the clips on that you want but if the hoofwall is significantly longer than the live sole plane then it is going to break away. And if you cut down the toe most of those wedges become unnecessary.
I nailed many of those tall stacks on, and pulled many off of incoming horses who had other prior farriers. The farrier I worked for didn’t believe it was healthy to grow the hoofwall to excess so for those horses that needed foot length to win, they got multiple height pads. Some were even so tall they had to be double nailed. Meaning the top pad was nailed to the foot and the lower pads were nailed to that one. There is nothing therapeutic about that setup.
I have a shoe and stack like that - a little more hoof in it - in my shoe box. I remember the farrier trying to get a plate on the hoof afterwards just to protect it while it grew out. A sad situation.
Most of the horses I’ve worked had one leather or one leather and a wedge. But that horse sometimes wore a double nail pad. I’m glad I’m done with that stuff.
For those who don’t know what a double nail pad is, you nail a thick pad to the hoof, then you nail the package to the pad, Like this: Applying a Double Nail Pad
Who is going to determine what is therapeutic? If some of you would say the vet, that doesnt take into acct that in most states farriers are not required to work under the supervision of a vet. The good ones will if there is a problem like laminitis etc. But a farrier isnt required too. So who is going to determine the expert who determines therapeutic? And if you say vets would have to supervise the farriers work, thats not so under law.
[QUOTE=pezk;8899207]
Who is going to determine what is therapeutic? If some of you would say the vet, that doesnt take into acct that in most states farriers are not required to work under the supervision of a vet. The good ones will if there is a problem like laminitis etc. But a farrier isnt required too. So who is going to determine the expert who determines therapeutic? And if you say vets would have to supervise the farriers work, thats not so under law.[/QUOTE]
It may be under this law. Time will tell.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8899205]
I have a shoe and stack like that - a little more hoof in it - in my shoe box. I remember the farrier trying to get a plate on the hoof afterwards just to protect it while it grew out. A sad situation.
Most of the horses I’ve worked had one leather or one leather and a wedge. But that horse sometimes wore a double nail pad. I’m glad I’m done with that stuff.
For those who don’t know what a double nail pad is, you nail a thick pad to the hoof, then you nail the package to the pad, Like this: Applying a Double Nail Pad
Source[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I wonder what is the purpose of double nailing such a low stack. The ones I had to double nail were so tall you couldn’t get a size 16 nail high enough in the hoofwall. Usually 3 flat plus a wedge and leather at a minimum.
[QUOTE=gypsymare;8899260]
The ones I had to double nail were so tall you couldn’t get a size 16 nail high enough in the hoofwall.[/QUOTE]
Well that’s just it. You use smaller nails in the hoof which you know are easier to get in, and don’t tear up as much hoof and seem to hold better. Then you use your big ole nails with the bigger clinches in the leather.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8899291]
Well that’s just it. You use smaller nails in the hoof which you know are easier to get in, and don’t tear up as much hoof and seem to hold better. Then you use your big ole nails with the bigger clinches in the leather.[/QUOTE]
The number size denotes length not shaft width. Holes and clinches are the same size. Then you can get slim blades if you want even slimmer shafts.
[QUOTE=pezk;8899207]
Who is going to determine what is therapeutic? If some of you would say the vet, that doesnt take into acct that in most states farriers are not required to work under the supervision of a vet. The good ones will if there is a problem like laminitis etc. But a farrier isnt required too. So who is going to determine the expert who determines therapeutic? And if you say vets would have to supervise the farriers work, thats not so under law.[/QUOTE]
USDA-APHIS.
G.
Non-enforcement and no deterrent penalties result in the following from 2014;
"“I Am Jose’s” Trainer Casey Wright has received 9 Horse Protection Act Violation Citations in the last nine years including unilateral sore, scar rule and foreign substance. "
“At the 2014 Celebration, the USDA Vet inspectors were turned over 50% of all the Big Lick Horses they checked as being SORE.”
[I]"There were only 3 Horses were left to show in the World Grand Championship class last night of which “I Am Jose’” was declared the winner. Of the five Judges, ALL of them had Horse Protection Act Violation Citations for soring… Over half of the other championship contenders didn’t show because they were found to be SORE."[/I]
Judges, JUDGES ALL had citations for soring.
Trainer had 9 in 9 years.
There are no teeth in this law’s bite, apparently if multi-repeat offenders are in charge of the judging and still in business. And multi-repeat offenders are training and winning championships.
The ‘lickers’ left USEF because USEF would no longer have them.
Making ‘a pad, any pad at all’ illegal is not going to do anything for enforcing realistic sanctions and fines/ bans against soring abuse.
-Not logical, but then, legislation seldom is.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8900220]
Non-enforcement and no deterrent penalties result in the following from 2014;
"“I Am Jose’s” Trainer Casey Wright has received 9 Horse Protection Act Violation Citations in the last nine years including unilateral sore, scar rule and foreign substance. "
“At the 2014 Celebration, the USDA Vet inspectors were turned over 50% of all the Big Lick Horses they checked as being SORE.”
[I]"There were only 3 Horses were left to show in the World Grand Championship class last night of which “I Am Jose’” was declared the winner. Of the five Judges, ALL of them had Horse Protection Act Violation Citations for soring… Over half of the other championship contenders didn’t show because they were found to be SORE."[/I]
Judges, JUDGES ALL had citations for soring.
Trainer had 9 in 9 years.
There are no teeth in this law’s bite, apparently if multi-repeat offenders are in charge of the judging and still in business. And multi-repeat offenders are training and winning championships.
The ‘lickers’ left USEF because USEF would no longer have them.
Making ‘a pad, any pad at all’ illegal is not going to do anything for enforcing realistic sanctions and fines/ bans against soring abuse.
-Not logical, but then, legislation seldom is.[/QUOTE]
Well, it will be interesting to see what happens, should this pass.
It isn’t too difficult to look at a horse, and determine if they have pads or bands on their feet. If they do, absent I guess a note from their Vet (who knows how that will play out) they are out. Pretty simple.
Do you want to load up everything, travel down the road, set up, dress up, and go into the ring to be spun out?
Me neither.
Here is my post on the USDA site.
I have owned American Saddlebreds for over 40 years. Throughout this period of time, I have had horses in the traditional show ring, as well as horses who competed in the sport horse disciplines. I have also been buying American Saddlebreds through public sales and auctions throughout this period of time.
I have personally seen horses with show shoes and pads that have hidden issues of all kinds. I have also seen horses with many layers of pads, heavy shoes, and bands which were intended to hold the entire “show package” on the horses foot. While American Saddlebreds are a trotting breed, and do move symmetrically, if a horse is sored symmetrically, they still will move squarely, albeit differently. A horse that is 10% lame in both front, or hind feet, will still appear to be symmetrical. That doesn’t make them sound.
While the American Saddlebred Horse Association, the United Professional Horseman’s Association, and others, are contending that they need pads in order to keep horses sound from the concussion incurred by the horses higher action, the reality is that these pads offer negligible protection against concussion. Besides limited the amount of trauma that could be incurred if a horse stepped upon a rock, or other debris, the only true purpose these pads, and packages, have is to attempt to enhance the gait, and make the horse more competitive, and therefore more valuable.
For me, the reality is simple; if a horse needs a SINGLE pad, or a pour in pad, for therapeutic use, and is recommended by a Vet by prescription, then the horse should have exactly what is needed. Other than that, leveling the playing field by removing the ability to add pads with those things that they can hide, lead weight, heavier shoes, and the bands to hold all of this on, does virtually nothing for the welfare of the animals.
If the playing field is leveled, with the removal of these unnecessary shoeing practices, then all of the horses will be competing based upon their individual talent. It has been said that “the good ones go light” to describe the best of my beloved breed, and I believe this to be true. In addition to the obvious welfare concerns, allowing these horses the ability to be turned out in paddocks, rather than locked up, lest they tear off a shoe, could allow them more normalcy in their lives.
No inherent financial challenges can possibly be construed by allowing for this policy to move forward. A great prospect will still be a great prospect. The blacksmiths can still charge a good price for their expertise, and people will still want to have their horses in training. Horse shows will still exist. The show ring paradigm may shift, however, it is long since time that this happened.
Do not be misled by those who are asking that their methods remain unquestioned. They aren’t asking to be able to use ONE pad- they aren’t asking to be able to use their bands, and weighted shoes. They are asking that it all be ignored, based upon the premise that you cannot sore a horse that needs to trot. This is simply not the case. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”, they say. I believe that we need to pull back the curtain, and stop these shoeing practices across the board, now and forever.
Thank you!
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