American Thoroughbred not good enough?!

[Dressagelvr]

. This is not about using the TB for sport or not. This is about if there is a difference or not between American Thoroughbreds and European TB’s.

How can this be a surprise to anyone? When the Europeans started using TBs in their WB books eons ago, they were English TBs by and large. The English TBs were bred quite differently from the American TBs, even back then as described earlier by someone else.

There have been some tremendous American TB Sporthorse Stallions for sure, but the best are now approaching retirement, already retired, or sadly gone.

We talk about AFR, Coconut Grove, Innkeeper, Salute the Truth, etc. Sea Accounts is lovely, but he is coming 18. Where is the next, or even current generation to fill the shoes of these legends?

These days, American TBs are no longer bred like they were 20 years ago. In general, they are more downhill, have a lower neck set, have even lighter boned etc etc. There are exceptions, of course, but they seem to be getting fewer.

. Why can’t we all just get along? After all, a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed, type, country of origin etc. We all have preferences, of course, but that doesn’t mean that one person’s preference is the best for everyone.

This is true, if you’re talking about a gelding. Buy and ride the horse in front of you and do what he can.

But, we aren’t talking about riding. We are talking about breeding horses for sport. Unfortunately, few TBs are being purpose bred for sport…or even in a manner that lends itself to sporthorse qualities, referring to dressage/show jumping/hunters.

TBs still do great in eventing, but again, there doesn’t seem to be a next generation to fill the gap left by the stallions mentioned above and others of their era. I’ve heard that a young AFR son may be one such example. I hope he is and that he is stood as well as AFR was.

I would actually love to see more TB stallions bred for sport, I just don’t see it happening based on what I see these days.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8877152]
How can this be a surprise to anyone? When the Europeans started using TBs in their WB books eons ago, they were English TBs by and large. The English TBs were bred quite differently from the American TBs, even back then as described earlier by someone else.

There have been some tremendous American TB Sporthorse Stallions for sure, but the best are now approaching retirement, already retired, or sadly gone.

We talk about AFR, Coconut Grove, Innkeeper, Salute the Truth, etc. Sea Accounts is lovely, but he is coming 18. Where is the next, or even current generation to fill the shoes of these legends?

These days, American TBs are no longer bred like they were 20 years ago. In general, they are more downhill, have a lower neck set, have even lighter boned etc etc. There are exceptions, of course, but they seem to be getting fewer.

This is true, if you’re talking about a gelding. Buy and ride the horse in front of you and do what he can.

But, we aren’t talking about riding. We are talking about breeding horses for sport. Unfortunately, few TBs are being purpose bred for sport…or even in a manner that lends itself to sporthorse qualities, referring to dressage/show jumping/hunters.

TBs still do great in eventing, but again, there doesn’t seem to be a next generation to fill the gap left by the stallions mentioned above and others of their era. I’ve heard that a young AFR son may be one such example. I hope he is and that he is stood as well as AFR was.

I would actually love to see more TB stallions bred for sport, I just don’t see it happening based on what I see these days.[/QUOTE]

They are there - just open your eyes a little.

Ituango xx
Armand xx (approved HOL)
Ibisco xx (also approved HOL)
Il Divo xx (also approved HOL)
Friend Or Foe
Artrageous
Baatesh
Ivory Coast
Sandro Star
Rather Well

That was just after 5 minutes of a google search.

The problem is it is inordinately expensive to market and campaign a TB stallion… so it’s easier to add blood through the dam.

I deal almost exclusively with OTTBs, by the way, and have to refute posts like yours that say that “downhill TBs are the norm and not the exception”. That simply isn’t true yet. I see plenty of uphill TBs still and don’t think the TB industry/conformation is any way shape or form as doomed as you think it is. When I walk down the shedrows at my local tracks I still see many classic TB types. My FB feed is replete with uphill horses and very few truly downhill ones - if they are downhill they are usually DLB, SC or In Excess derived which counts for only a fraction of the TB population.

[ladyj79]

It amazes me that top wb breeders never come on here and ask why racehorse breeders don’t use their incredible stallions to breed better race horses…

Oh, yeah, because that would be ridiculous.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8877296]
It amazes me that top wb breeders never come on here and ask why racehorse breeders don’t use their incredible stallions to breed better race horses…

Oh, yeah, because that would be ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone is saying that – or even arguing that TBs should be considered the top contribution for SJ/Dressage pursuits.

It is also ridiculous that Bayhawk doesn’t consider eventing a sport; coincidentally probably because TBs and their offspring dominate it.

[D_BaldStockings]

An interesting pedigree
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1143

3 of 4 great-grandsires are TB, the 4th is Ramzes.

This pedigree is interesting because of the number of 1.60m SJ this stallion has sired:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/1143

For what it is worth, checking the progeny of TB used in other than Holst. registries shows a pretty good % of 1.60m SJ in the 3rd generation or better.
Some 3rd generation mares have even produced 3 or more 1.60m SJ, a VERY high number.

But since WBFSH only ranks by registry, it isn’t the easiest to follow down 3-4 generations to see what HORSES are actually having the best success.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8877301]

It is also ridiculous that Bayhawk doesn’t consider eventing a sport; coincidentally probably because TBs and their offspring dominate it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t recall Bayhawk ever saying that. Please show where he’s ever said that Eventing isn’t a sport.

And, frankly, it appears that eventing breeding is starting to go the way of dressage, hunters and jumpers. I don’t see the infusion of WB breeding in eventing stock going away any time soon.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8877296]
It amazes me that top wb breeders never come on here and ask why racehorse breeders don’t use their incredible stallions to breed better race horses…

Oh, yeah, because that would be ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Historically WB breeders have used TB repeatedly every several decades because those ‘incredible stallions’ DID get better Sport horses - at least in the 2nd generation and onward.

There have been occasional ‘Dark Horses’ and ‘Ringers’ that attempted to flat race with TBs (half-breds or better) but their lack of success in that very specialized field, and their further lack of success when (mares) were bred stopped the hopefuls.

Thoroughbreds are a much older breed than Sportbreds and the book is closed because, well, it can’t be improved on for what it can do.

It is no coincidence that Europeans exclude American stock from their studbooks; there is no Inspection or performance qualification for American breeds… on the other hand few American breeds are willing to ‘predict’ a colt’s breeding value until after it does the job it was bred to do.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8877369]
I don’t recall Bayhawk ever saying that. Please show where he’s ever said that Eventing isn’t a sport.

And, frankly, it appears that eventing breeding is starting to go the way of dressage, hunters and jumpers. I don’t see the infusion of WB breeding in eventing stock going away any time soon.[/QUOTE]

I’ll bite:
here are Bayhawk’s posts and yes I did bold.

"The TB breeding farms here have justly bred them to be runners. This is what they do.
The other breeders here are trying to make sporthorses out of these runners. Failure ensues… "

"And besides eventing…you see the influence of these horses basically nowhere. ok…maybe in the speedbump hunter and jumper classes.

Most breeders don’t want them and most of the market doesn’t want them because most have a shorter front leg , a higher croup and really low neck sets that render them incapable of top sport or producing for top sport.

I go to many shows around the world each year. I watch online most shows around the world. I study sporthorse rankings ,sire rankings and mare family rankings. These horses you speak of just aren’t there. "

"Doesn’t matter if you take me seriously or not. [B]The facts are the facts.

I don’t bash them. I just don’t believe in their quality as sporthorses[/B]."

"I am in the market. There is never a mention from any rider, anywhere , that seeks out TB horses for sport besides eventing.

If there were…you would see them personally on shows or you would see them in statistics. Not there… "

It is a conundrum that Bayhawk in the same post says TB are not good for Sporthorses and also that they are not suitable for(breeding for) top sport.

-but maybe they can Event…
Might lead some to believe that Bayhawk does not consider Event as top sport?

Saying that one can’t see blue because one is looking through a filter that only shows yellow and red (the databases) doesn’t mean the blue isn’t there.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8877422]
I’ll bite:
here are Bayhawk’s posts and yes I did bold.

"The TB breeding farms here have justly bred them to be runners. This is what they do.
The other breeders here are trying to make sporthorses out of these runners. Failure ensues… "

"And besides eventing…you see the influence of these horses basically nowhere. ok…maybe in the speedbump hunter and jumper classes.

Most breeders don’t want them and most of the market doesn’t want them because most have a shorter front leg , a higher croup and really low neck sets that render them incapable of top sport or producing for top sport.

I go to many shows around the world each year. I watch online most shows around the world. I study sporthorse rankings ,sire rankings and mare family rankings. These horses you speak of just aren’t there. "

"Doesn’t matter if you take me seriously or not. [B]The facts are the facts.

I don’t bash them. I just don’t believe in their quality as sporthorses[/B]."

"I am in the market. There is never a mention from any rider, anywhere , that seeks out TB horses for sport besides eventing.

If there were…you would see them personally on shows or you would see them in statistics. Not there… "

It is a conundrum that Bayhawk in the same post says TB are not good for Sporthorses and also that they are not suitable for(breeding for) top sport.

-but maybe they can Event…
Might lead some to believe that Bayhawk does not consider Event as top sport?

Saying that one can’t see blue because one is looking through a filter that only shows yellow and red (the databases) doesn’t mean the blue isn’t there.[/QUOTE]

I’m still not seeing where Bayhawk is saying that eventing is not a sport. It may not be HIS sport, which I think is his basic argument…that TBs don’t significantly add to dressage and jumpers anymore, mostly due to their conformation. I tend to agree with him, from what I can see. I think a lot of these arguments boil down to difference of opinion on the conformation needed for top sport. And, I wouldn’t put words in his mouth.

[D_BaldStockings]

Nor did I put words in his mouth. I did copy/paste his posts.

Here is a direct daughter of Sir Shostakovich XX 1.60m SJ.
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/309752

No offspring listed. For what it is worth, her dam had 2 foals. A staatspramie daughter by… Sir Shostakovich XX and her full sister the 1.60m jumper above.
The unshown daughter is granddam to Carambole 1.60m SJ.

The granddam Ucca produced 2 fillies that bred on, but only the one bred to the TB Sir Shostakovich XX produced higher level SJ - but then, those horses were in the USA, so probably were not marketed toward top jumper sport.

The only other 1.60m SJ from the family of Esra, Uccas dam, was through her daughter Paresta by the TB Marlon XX: her daughter Laconda produced Laura and Laura produced a 1.60m SJ when bred to Chin Chin.

You have to know how to look.

[D_BaldStockings]

Indoctro was considered a good sire. I am NOT going to pick apart his conformation, only going to mention that what some seem to see as ‘important points’ in jumper conformation do not seem to influence the jump at upper levels of the sport.
http://www.gfeweb.com/en/cheval-340-600-600/image/2640/Indoctro-mod-legende.jpg

Note that I am not saying you should select for butt-high. What I am saying is that standing a horse on a hill in a semi-stretched posture as can be seen in some recent stallion ad pics does not change the relative height of the stifle, nor strengthen the loin nor raise the base of the neck. Comparing horse A as a 2 year-old or 3-year old with horse B as a mature stallion isn’t gong to go well, either.

[D_BaldStockings]

This Thoroughbred is not too shabby
http://americanracehorse.com/wp-content/uploads/jetphone.jpg

They are out there. But no one should breed to a photo; a performer is what is needed.

[D_BaldStockings]

Or perhaps something like this
http://www.ohiostallions.com/Tidal_Volume_conformation_IMG_2805.jpg

Oh, wait… I thought we were breeding for performance, not arbitrary looks.

I can’t imagine why anyone would be interested in a horse that can convert ground force to acceleration - or vertical lift - in the blink of an eye.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8877301]
I don’t think anyone is saying that – or even arguing that TBs should be considered the top contribution for SJ/Dressage pursuits.

It is also ridiculous that Bayhawk doesn’t consider eventing a sport; coincidentally probably because TBs and their offspring dominate it.[/QUOTE]

Don’t put words in my mouth. I’ve never said I didn’t consider eventing a sport. It’s one of our Olympic disciplines and I have nothing but respect for the horses and riders that compete.

The Tb’s are not “Dominating” eventing. They use to…but not any longer.

Here is the 2016 WBFSH Eventing Sires ranking. A Holsteiner is #1 and TB Stallions only occupy 3 out of the top 10 spots.

Rolex WBFSH Top 10 Eventing Sire Ranking

1 (3) CONTENDRO I - 999
2 (10) RAMIRO B - 976
3 (2) HERALDIK XX - 885
4 (1) MASTER IMP XX - 864
5 (20) JAGUAR MAIL - 773
6 (8) RICARDO Z - 704
7 (36) LIMMERICK - 703
8 (47) PUISSANCE - 658
9 (4) GHAREEB XX - 648
10 (16) COURAGE II - 630

[elizabeth_Callahan]

When the long format went away, so did the dominance and need for the full TB. Sad, but true…
I love my TB’s , and feel that they are wonderful for the stamina and heart they bring to the equation,but with the evolution of the sport( and in my mind, not a forward evolution), that ship has sailed and won’t be coming back…

[Elles]

https://m.facebook.com/thoroughbredsporthorses/

[Xanthoria]

@beowulf;8875741

While I agree that there are downhill TBs out there (such is the nature of specializing for speed) they are not limited to just the US and are by no means the only representative of TBs in the US. None of the TBs I mentioned are downhill. EventerAJ’s post is worth repeating - these stallions shuttle all over the world and cover very wide mare bases.

So, I think there are a few things to note about “being downhill” before I post some marked up shots.

• Most photos show a moment in time. A horse's angles can change drastically depending on their stance, withers especially can pop up or down.
• A horse can be built downhill, but move uphill.
• A horse's athletic ability, character, and presence cannot be strictly defined by angles, but we have all likely ridden a downhill horse and an uphill horse. And we mostly know what we prefer.
• It is up to stallion owners to make sure they take good photos of horses for their sites. Many do not...

With all that in mind, I tried to find good conformation pics of some of the horses people have mentioned, and in most cases failed. That alone is a bit irritating - if you’re selling a stallion and conformation is acknowledged as being important, why not show that conformation… if it’s good? Even retired stallions, one would think, might have images floating around the web?

Some shots were taken showing the horse at an angle, or up a hill: a trick that’s easy to see through. While rotating the pics in Photoshop leads to incorrect leg angles, the main body angles are less distorted, so in some cases I had to do that to show “level.” You can see the white corners on the ones I did.

I added 5 lines to each picture. Two blue "level’ ones at feet and above the back to show true horizontal. A yellow one for stifle-elbow, a green one for LS-widest part of neck, and a red one for croup-withers.

Salute the Truth
Comet Shine
Sea Accounts
Roven
Roven again
Triple Twist
Sea Lion
Sadler’s Wells

What I learned was that all the horses I could find pictures for were downhill by at least 2 out of three measures. And depending on how you stand a horse up (Roven) his angles change. Yes you can dicker over where the lines hit but even if you think the stifle is in the gaskin, the lines still run down hill in the majority of cases.

The fact is that it’s very rare to find a horse who is level, let alone uphill. But a very downhill horse who also moves downhill is a really unpleasant ride IMEX and when you’re breeding, you’d only choose a downhill sire if both sire an dam move uphill and have the competition results to prove it.

[Elles]

I would like to stress again, Bayhawk and D_BaldStockings, that this discussion is not about TB compared to WB but “American” TB compared to “European” TB. As some people say that the “European” TB is better suited if one would want to use a TB for sport or sporthorse breeding.
http://eventingnation.com/pedigree-analysis-of-rolex-thoroughbreds/
http://eventingconnect.today/2016/04/27/the-thoroughbreds-of-rolex-pedigree-analysis-part-1/
http://e-venting.co.uk/2016/06/prevalent-thoroughbred-lines-at-badminton/
http://www.bdwp.co.uk/bur/16/
http://www.breedingbritish.co.uk/category/reports/eventing/
http://eventingconnect.today/2016/04/29/the-thoroughbreds-of-rolex-pedigree-analysis-part-2/
https://www.retiredracehorseproject.org/
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/top-10-eventing-sires-2015-519641
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/irish-bloodlines-make-their-mark-in-rolex-kentucky-34597969.html
http://competition-stallions.com/details/Primitive-Faerie-Tale/255.html
https://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/index.php/the-heraldik-influence/
http://eventingnation.com/your-guide-to-eventings-athletes-equines-at-the-2016-olympics/
https://www.retiredracehorseproject.org/18-care-training/947-lost-art-marketing-ottbs-by-pedigree-not-so-black-and-white
http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-4

[D_BaldStockings]

Xanthoria,
It would have been more informative if the same was done to top WB jumper sires from 20-30 years ago as a comparison; but it is too easy for people to get bent out of shape if there is line drawn criticism of an idol that runs contrary to popular opinion.

Which is why using deceased horses might be slightly less negative…

The additional number of elbow-stifle downhill horses might be an eye opener for some.

[D_BaldStockings]

Elles,
Please give a criteria for European bred vs. American bred in TB.

Since stallions rotate through various countries and people move mares as well, how many generations foaled in either continent and with sires/ grandsires bred/foaled on the same continent qualifies?