Fwiw the Facebook page of the racehorses stallion "Blame"posts amazing photos of the great and good and hardknocking race horses past and present and top stallions and blue hen mares. …a lot of hard work someone does. It is a wonderful Facebook page.
Yes, it is a nice page, I also “liked” it about half a year ago.
I don’t know how they come up with the World Rankings but looking at the 4* results so far this year one would not see any of those sires but you would see sufficient blood close up. Will that change in time? Maybe but considering these horses were born after a change in format maybe, maybe not. Depends on if they want to keep dumbing the xc down. So I think it’s ridiculous to say the TB has no influence or it’s dying. Burghley in 5th a full TB. Arctic Soul 3rd Badminton a full TB. Luhmulen, winner a full TB. Oddly or Ironically, the only one this year without a full TB in the top 5 was Role . But it’s OK Jung showed them how to do it on one of his blood horses. Sire a full TB. All featured TB influence except the odd one. Kind of like when you see a lot of blood in a SJ, we get told that’s not the norm and won’t be. I don’t have time to write them all down as I have to go. These aren’t made up statistics. These are the actual horses getting the job done.
Terri
http://tgl.luhmuehlen.de/files/CCI_CIC_2016/luhm0_010_erspr_abst.pdf
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10774317&blood=10"a= I think Blushing Groom can also be found quite a lot in American horses.
The damsire is Local Suitor. Also USA bred. I had that damline myself. The warmblood/TB cross I have for just me is FF 17-b and Home Love is the 4th dam of “Cupcake”. Lots of black type in her family. Local Suitor is in other approved sires used for breeding sport horses.
I thought you weren’t on FB Elle? Go like Lydia Hannon Eventing. You can see Ziggy. ??
Terri
I became a Facebook member this year :-). First under my horse’s name but that was turned into a page instead of a “person”. And then I gave my horse’s trainer all the controls of that page and made a profile for myself under my own name.
I am going to like Lydia Hannon immediately!
http://www.chef-de-race.com/dosage/classics/does_pedigree_matter.htm
I think for example a horse like Holy Bull is very American, I do not think you will find a lot of horses of that line in Europe.
This one looks very American on paper and I do like his conformation:
http://www.winstarfarm.com/horses/bodemeister-4205.html#hh-pedigree
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8879372]
I don’t know how they come up with the World Rankings but looking at the 4* results so far this year one would not see any of those sires but you would see sufficient blood close up. Will that change in time? Maybe but considering these horses were born after a change in format maybe, maybe not. Depends on if they want to keep dumbing the xc down. So I think it’s ridiculous to say the TB has no influence or it’s dying. Burghley in 5th a full TB. Arctic Soul 3rd Badminton a full TB. Luhmulen, winner a full TB. Oddly or Ironically, the only one this year without a full TB in the top 5 was Role . But it’s OK Jung showed them how to do it on one of his blood horses. Sire a full TB. All featured TB influence except the odd one. Kind of like when you see a lot of blood in a SJ, we get told that’s not the norm and won’t be. I don’t have time to write them all down as I have to go. These aren’t made up statistics. These are the actual horses getting the job done.
Terri[/QUOTE]
but the TB is dying, has no worth as a sporthorse, and eventing isn’t a sport :rolleyes:
Bayhawk, as someone who participates in, and heavily monitors, the sport you seem to think so lowly of, trust me - TBs dominate it. Surprising when you consider that many of them, unlike HOL, don’t have the luxury of being specifically bred for the sport. Most that are blooded are by TB (racebred) stallions or TB mares. The blood is quite thick in eventing and still very much needed.
Assuming it being very plausible that there is a role for TB “blood” in eventing: is there a difference in TB populations in different places (continents)? Like for example by many people the NZ horses seem to be considered top of the bill. Although I believe that shuttle stallions there also have a firm foot on the ground.
[QUOTE=Elles;8879509]
Assuming it being very plausible that there is a role for TB “blood” in eventing: is there a difference in TB populations in different places (continents)? Like for example by many people the NZ horses seem to be considered top of the bill. Although I believe that shuttle stallions there also have a firm foot on the ground.[/QUOTE]
I will just chip in, with my point of view of Warmblood breeder. When stallion owners are looking for a TB stallion to offer to breeders, they are looking for the very specific attributes they want to improve in the mare population that a TB stallion can bring. As discussed before, what the TB can bring to the sporthorse world is generally summarised roughly as blood, stamina and refinment. At that stage, the decisions are not taken on a population basis, but on an individual basis. Sporthorse breeders do not care if the stallion is american, european or otherwise. They will look at the horse itself and the production of his bloodlines. And contrary to what many of the people on this forum seems to think, a lot of breeders in any sport horses studbooks still believe in the importance of influx of TB every few generations in a pedigree, and a lot of important stallion owners, and most of the major studbooks are continously on the look for the next LadyKiller, Laudanum, Julio Mariner or Heraldik. The general observation, and it is in no way scientific, is that TB considered to be potential improvers for the sport horse industry are harder to find in the US. In fact, in recent years, it seemed that a lot of “scouting” efforts was done elswhere than in North America or Europe, such as South America, Australia and New Zealand for those exceptional TB.
Kind of like when you see a lot of blood in a SJ, we get told that’s not the norm and won’t be.
I do not know who tells you that, but that is absolutely not true, and all serious sport horse breeders and breeders organisations are almost unanimously of the opposite position. I will discuss what I know, as a showjumping enthusiast, but the sport of showjumping is always evolving, is getting more technical, and the horse required for modern sport needs, amongst others, a lot of blood. In fact, that is why, for the last couple of decades, a lot of TB blood was incorporated in the bloodlines, to improve horses already full of strenght, but that lack the blood. Since then, the average warmblood as evolved, and is now a horse with much more blood. The question is now to know if we need to continue to incorporate more new blood through TB stallions, or if their is already enough wb horses available that are known to add blood to their products. And on that point, even WB breeders do not all agree on the question.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8879493]
but the TB is dying, has no worth as a sporthorse, and eventing isn’t a sport :rolleyes:
Bayhawk, as someone who participates in, and heavily monitors, the sport you seem to think so lowly of, trust me - TBs dominate it. Surprising when you consider that many of them, unlike HOL, don’t have the luxury of being specifically bred for the sport. Most that are blooded are by TB (racebred) stallions or TB mares. The blood is quite thick in eventing and still very much needed.[/QUOTE]
Do you work for CNN ? I only ask as you are very good at twisting words and putting words in my mouth.
I never said eventing isn’t a sport. I never said the TB was dying and I never said it had no worth as a sporthorse. So learn to read for comprehension and stop putting words in peoples mouths !
What I did say was…in relation to the topic of this thread and the way the TB’s are constructed today…that I don’t believe in their quality as a sporthorse or their quality in breeding. The way they are constructed today…can you read and comprehend that ?
You said before and you just said it again that TB’s “dominate” eventing. This is absolutely NOT TRUE and I posted stats to show you this.
The need for the full TB is no longer required because of the shorter format. The need for good showjumping and good dressage far outweighs the need for the previous stamina requirements before the format change. Get over it…accept it…this is just the way it is and the World rankings are proof of it.
I will agree with you that the BLOOD from TB’s are still needed. The TB itself is not though.
They are very valuable in the generational production of the warmblood and as now you are seeing…the generational production of top eventers. Times have changed…
You do everything but say it - when I asked you directly if eventing was a sport, you chose to ignore the question. I have asked you in the past and also have not been answered. Can you read and comprehend that?
You posted the WSB Rankings, but I am talking about the number of TB participants in the sport, not the number of TB stallions with progeny competing. TBs absolutely outnumber and outperform almost every other studbook (except ISH) in UL eventing. If you go through the rankings of finished competitors in Boekelo, Burghley, Badminton, Rolex, etc, you will see that. The numbers are there if you’d like to take a look.
[QUOTE=Equilibrium;8879372]
I don’t know how they come up with the World Rankings but looking at the 4* results so far this year one would not see any of those sires but you would see sufficient blood close up. Will that change in time? Maybe but considering these horses were born after a change in format maybe, maybe not. Depends on if they want to keep dumbing the xc down. So I think it’s ridiculous to say the TB has no influence or it’s dying. Burghley in 5th a full TB. Arctic Soul 3rd Badminton a full TB. Luhmulen, winner a full TB. Oddly or Ironically, the only one this year without a full TB in the top 5 was Role . But it’s OK Jung showed them how to do it on one of his blood horses. Sire a full TB. All featured TB influence except the odd one. Kind of like when you see a lot of blood in a SJ, we get told that’s not the norm and won’t be. I don’t have time to write them all down as I have to go. These aren’t made up statistics. These are the actual horses getting the job done.
Terri[/QUOTE]
Hi Terri ! No one is saying the TB has no influence. I’m just saying the full TB himself is becoming less required as the eventing world, just like the showjumping world has already done…is now making a beautiful hybrid.
There are 3 parts of the class…2 parts are dressage and showjumping. This is where the WB’s are winning and needed . When this hybrid horse has enough blood to do well on XC ,then you have a very competitive horse. This is where the breeding is going and the rankings are a very good indication of this.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8879807]
You do everything but say it - when I asked you directly if eventing was a sport, you chose to ignore the question. I have asked you in the past and also have not been answered. Can you read and comprehend that?
You posted the breeding values, but I am talking about the number of TB participants in the sport, not the number of TB stallions with progeny competing. TBs absolutely outnumber and outperform almost every other studbook (except ISH) in UL eventing. The numbers are there if you’d like to take a look.[/QUOTE]
This is my last post to you as you clearly have no reading comprehension.
you said " when I asked directly if eventing was a sport ,you chose to ignore it." No , I said of course it is a sport , it is one of our Olympic disciplines and I have nothing but respect for the horses and riders.
You said : " You posted the breeding values" . No , I didn’t. This is where you haven’t even bothered to read and try and learn something. I posted the World Studbook rankings of EVENTING. Here you have the PERFORMANCE of 66 of World’s top showing horses for which only 6 were sired by TB Stallions. The other 60 were sired by other than a TB Stallions.
I also posted the EVENTING Sires ranking. This also is not a “breeding value” . This list is compiled of the actual performance of the sires progeny. A TB Stallion is not #1 and in fact there are only 3 of them in the top 10.
It’s uneducated to still persist that TB’s “dominate” eventing.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8879837]
T
It’s uneducated to still persist that TB’s “dominate” eventing.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding me? Look at the top finishers of *, **, ***, & ****s and come back. I’ll wait.
I have PLENTY of reading comprehension. Just because my opinion doesn’t coincide with yours doesn’t mean I don’t comprehend what you are saying. I comprehend it just fine, I just disagree with you.
The rider that just won the 3DE Grand Slam did it on a 1/2 TB and a ~3/4 TB. The horse that won Rolex last year was half TB. Badminton, Burghley, Boekelo, Adelaide, have all been won consistently by full TBs or half TBs.
http://www.hippomundo.com/en/rankings/horse
I am afraid that American bred horses are not included in this ranking :-(.
Rank
Horse
Studbook
Sire
Sire of dam
Year
Earnings
1 La Biosthetique-Sam BAD-WÜ Stan the Man xx Heraldik xx 2000 € 244.870,-
2 Fischerrocana FST Sachs Ituango xx Carismo 2005 € 239.962,-
3 Hale-Bob 3 Old Helikon xx Noble Champion 2004 € 159.605,-
4 Paulank Brockagh ISH Touchdown Triggerero xx 2003 € 130.930,-
5 Chilli Morning Brand Phantomic xx Kolibri 2000 € 130.080,-
6 Ringwood Sky Boy ISH Courage II Sky Boy xx 2003 € 121.963,-
7 Nereo CDE Fines xx Golfi 2000 € 103.760,-
8 Leonidas II Holst Landos Parco xx 2004 € 103.725,-
9 FRH Escada JS Hann Embassy I Lehnsherr 2004 € 90.580,-
10 Opgun Louvo SF Shogoun II J’T’Adore 2002 € 89.840,-
11 Classic Moet Classic xx 2003 € 89.765,-
12 Armada CDE Fines xx Golfi 1999 € 84.740,-
13 Avebury SHBGB Jumbo Bairn xx 2000 € 84.540,-
14 Nobilis 18 Hann Nobre xx Lemon xx 2005 € 82.240,-
15 Clifton Lush TB Half Iced xx Le Grand Seigneur xx 1999 € 77.110,-
16 So Is Et Westf Sunlight xx Rotarier 2003 € 72.935,-
17 Arctic Soul TB Luso xx Roi Danzig xx 2003 € 72.490,-
18 Fischertakinou AA Jaguar Mail Sardana Pierre 2007 € 68.745,-
19 Wesko KWPN Karandasj Mytens xx 2003 € 61.860,-
20 TS Jamaimo TB Urgent Request xx Bustino xx 1999 € 58.409,-
But Arctic Soul xx has quite a big American influence: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=11003227&blood=10"a=&z=yF6EYD
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8879837]
It’s uneducated to still persist that TB’s “dominate” eventing.[/QUOTE]
2015 R3DE Winner: Fischerocana (half TB)
2014 R3DE Winner: Bay My Hero (half TB)
2015 BADMINTON WINNER: La Biosthetique Sam (~3/4 TB)
2014 BADMINTON winner: Chilli Morning (half TB)
That was only off of memory. You can google the rest.
[QUOTE=beowulf;8879845]
Are you kidding me? Look at the top finishers of *, **, ***, & ****s and come back. I’ll wait.
I have PLENTY of reading comprehension. Just because my opinion doesn’t coincide with yours doesn’t mean I don’t comprehend what you are saying. I comprehend it just fine, I just disagree with you.
The rider that just won the 3DE Grand Slam qualified for part of it on a half TB. The horse that won Rolex last year was half TB. Badminton, Burghley, Boekelo, Adelaide, have all been won consistently by full TBs or half TBs.[/QUOTE]
Half , half , half , 3/4 …thanks for making my point. See ya…
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;8879866]
Half , half , half , 3/4 …thanks for making my point. See ya…[/QUOTE]
So I suppose the other half is the reason for their success? Of course. :rolleyes:
TBs are still in eventing. They still dominate it. If they didn’t you wouldn’t see a flood of horses by thoroughbreds winning. These horses are consistently produced by THOROUGHBREDS. Not Holsteiners. Of course, leave it to Bayhawk to say that the TB had nothing to do with it.
