So I am again looking at young horses so I can hopefully have something coming up behind my current guy. I was wondering what experiences or insight you all might have on the get from Ampere and Belissimo M? I do recognize that these are two very different horses, but I have some youngsters in mind by each stallion and I was hoping to see if what I’ve heard thus far matches up with what others here may have experienced.
While I’m curious about their movement, I am more interested in the temperament/character and trainability of their offspring.
I don’t know much about Ampere’s offspring other than they seem to have a reputation for being hot/hard. People who have them really seem to like them, though, and they seem to have really spectacular gaits. I guess as a sire, he’s pretty known for improving on a hind end so it makes sense that his offspring have some really nice movement.
I do hear rave reviews about Belissimo M as a sire. I’ve spoken with some breeders and they consider him as an option to use with a hotter mare feeling that he mellows down more reactive temperaments. General consensus seems to indicate that his offspring aren’t really spooky/hot, but they can be sensitive and smart - so occasionally challenging, but good minded. From what I’ve seen in person, they look very willing and extremely rideable. The one I’ve seen in person seriously impressed me (young horse/busy arena with plenty of unusual distractions that they didn’t bat an eye at).
All that said, I think that I’ve seen more of Ampere’s offspring go through the German auctions - so they might present better as young horses, compared to the B line that (pure speculation here) might need a little time to mature to show themselves off well? I don’t know that the B line is really notorious for big gaits (Bolero/Beltain/Brentano II) so it could also be that the auctions are looking for more of the big-moving horses to showcase. (I think the one major exception I know of is Belissimo M’s son, Benicio, who is a very dynamic mover - though I can’t seem to remember any of his offspring offhand so I don’t know if he passes on his movement.)
That’s super helpful. That seems to be right in line with the anecdotal information I’ve heard around here. While I like the fancier movers (duh statement to be sure), I’m not looking to have a winning young horse as much as I want a nice FEI horse. So I’d probably do better with the B line in this case.
My gelding is by Ampere out of an Alabastro (brentano II) mare. He is an international quality mover, incredible hind leg, huge canter, tremendous ability to sit, hot, sensitive, spooky and certainly not for the faint of heart. From what I know Amperes need to be very carefully trained, not pushed to quickly and need a quite, balanced, brave and very patient rider. In the wrong hands by boy’s brain would be fried quite easily. He was certainly not a fun young horse–I can’t remember how many times I fell off him-he is coming 8 and is finally now the most fun horse I have ever ridden. He will be a fantastic FEI horse…if I survive…but I adore him and I would hesitate to get another one just like him.
Peggy, thank you for the information! Your boy sounds lovely, but probably not the young horse experience I’m looking for right now. lol Even though I ride as a pro, I try to be honest about my strengths as a rider, and being relaxed on a hot, athletic youngster isn’t high on that list. :lol: I mean all talented prospects can have their hairy moments, but I’d probably do best with something a little less sensitive. He does sound outstanding though!
I’d be interested to hear what those who have seen a number of Benicios have to say about this… I bought a Benicio in-utero who is due in May. My impression of his offspring is that they seem to be more consistent in type and movement than his dad but this is solely based on videos. I haven’t met any of his offspring in person.
If you get any sort of concrete answer, would you share back? I would love an answer on that. And congratulations on the foal! I hope you post updates - I love Benicio and would enjoy hearing someone’s first hand accounts with his offspring!
I have seen in person an Ampere who is absolutely stunning and is 110% an international quality horse. I have heard the same thing re: they are hot and require an excellent young horse trainer.
I really also like Belissimo M horses. Particularly I remember a mare who sold at Verden who was, to my eye, the stand out of the sale as far as a horse I would like to handle and ride.
I bought a 3-yo Ampere gelding out of a Sandro Hit mare a few years ago. I was hoping he’d be my next great hunter, but he had other ideas and wanted to be a dressage horse.
He was not spooky in general, and when he did spook it was a ‘stop and stare’ not a ‘spook and spin’. He was a very sensitive horse emotionally…highly intelligent, super sweet, and yes, needed a soft, confident professional ride. He was brought along slowly and carefully and did well when given time to understand what was being asked of him. I wouldn’t say he was overly sensitive to the aids…just right. And definitely not hot.
His movement was breathtaking…everyone who saw him would stop to watch him go. Gorgeous conformation, overall a beautiful horse.
I sold him to a lovely family last year and have no doubt he’ll go far in his dressage career.
The Ampere offspring I’ve seen have been pretty exceptional horses, I imagine I’d love one once it was seven or eight. lol
The Belissimo foals haven’t been as ‘exciting’ to see go as foals when compared to Ampere’s, but I have seen some older ones under saddle that I just loved. I am hoping the filly by Belissimo will be like this; she’s pretty lovely right now as far as movement goes but I wouldn’t say she has that money trot you see some foals with. The only thing I don’t love really is that her head isn’t exactly beautiful. lol I can get over that though if she has brains in it and is talented. :lol:
He sounds super! Is he currently showing in the dressage ring? My current guy has Sandro Hit X Donnerhall on the mare line and his spooks were always the stop and stare too. He’s a ridiculously smart horse, and absurdly people oriented, but I wouldn’t say particularly hot. And spooking is really just if he needs an excuse. lol I started him myself and found him mostly agreeable.
I have a Belissimo M! She is a 2nd generation product of my breeding program and out of my Freestyle/Wolkenstein II mare. As other have said, Belissimo doesn’t necessarily produce fancy moving foals, but his offspring really shine under saddle! My girl is a total dream horse. Sensitive in a good way, honest and eager to please. As a youngster she scored up to 80% at Training Level. She is now solid 2nd level, schooling some Third level and I’ve been told by a former Canadian team rider that she is a “top horse”.
I also have a 2 year old Benicio filly out of a Dutch mare (Rhodium/Don Primaire). I would say this filly was a fancier looking foal that the Belissimo. Right now she just looks like a furry yakling. I guess time will tell how she turns out!
I think his new family did a couple of dressage shows last year, but I rider hunters, so I haven’t been following too closely. The funny thing is I’ve only sold two horses in my life - and this family bought both of them! Both were horses that I wanted to be hunters, but the horses had other ideas. The first one was 8 years ago. He’s now 18 and showing with the mom. The younger one is the Ampere gelding who will be wow-ing the dressage judges.
this is interesting as couldn’t think of two horses any more different than these.
first and most obvious difference:
ampere is a real foal maker while belissimo sure isn’t.
the first is of “modern” breed (pretty head and “frontlegs first!”, in trump-speech) while the latter often stamps his get in the traditional hannoverian way:
grande and even more grande.
reason why his first foal crops remained somewhat unnoticed and the belissimo hype only started upont the eldest get being under saddle, obviously proving to be ridable.
completely different to ampere, breeders went nuts about him immediatley, at least german breeders, after he showed up in public in germany for licensing.
most of them had never seen him under saddle, noone cared.
the stallion sired 424 foals in germany between 2009 and 2015 without ever appearing under saddle himself. according to the german yearbook 106 of these have been competing in sport so far. 20% and a meager number, however, the youngest turn 3 this year, so maybe way to go.
he sired addtl 374 foals in the netherlands (source: http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/201…eeding-values/), quote: “Ampère (Rousseau / Flemmingh) is another who has fallen from grace, three years ago, his breeding value was 147, now it is 133 (83%). 374 progeny over 4, 76 competitors, that’s 20.212%.”
in addition, he was used all over europe, quoting eurodressage with 94 foals in one year only in sweden (a relatively small stud book, thus, a big breeding number, too): "SWE 94 (Eurodressage, 2013? “…Ampere Most Popular Breeding Stallion in Sweden in 2013 … Flemmingh is leading the breeding statistics as most used dressage stallion. Ampere covered 94 mares in Sweden, which is the …")”
thus, apart form those quoted figures to be considered reliable, we can assume these figures are incomplete as there were (or still are) more breedings than this in europe plus the rest of the worl, i.e. the states (you know better than i do).
since ampere lacks any sport record himself, all one can do is approach his value as a sire by his get. in order to do so, total breeding numbers are important, reason i did the above research that already includes 424 + 374 + 94 + x = 986 registered foals + x.
even though these numbers are incomplete, most of these foals should have matured under saddle / appeared in competiton by now.
what is their above average accomplishment in sport to justify above average breeding breeding figures of the sire?
eldest get was born 2009/2010 and could have reached s-level by now (8yr), some should have been seen at young horse championships age 4-6 in the recent years.
the german yearbook shows 46(!) licensed sons by ampere, emphasizing the sire’s ability as a foalmaker:
high density of spectacular foals (“frontleg first!”) usually make for nice colts age 2 running at liberty and of course, the verbands are eager to make money from the licensing circus, too.
what does that tell us about the under saddle functionality?
nothing.
26 of these 46 stallion sons have been registered in the german main stoodbooks “H1” by german verbands up until 9/2017, implying that 20 of them (44%) did not pass a stallion performance test in order to maintain their breeding approval. these are german numbers only, i do not know about the final approval quotas in the netherlands.
my very personal observation:
the stallion lacks walk himself, so do most of his get.
incomplete horses.
nature has it, that everything is designed equal. in horse breeding terms that means:
“frontleg out” usually corresponds with “hindleg out”, too.
it does.
sandro hit, jazz, vitalis, vivaldi etc, all of the more spectacular movers (frontleg) produce equally desigend horses by nature. it is a natural correspondence. less spectacle (in front) usually suits hindend functionality better.
exceptions prove the rule.
having an experienced and good rider also helps to get the hindleg under, if the horse accepts the harder work it takes. within naturally given limits, that is.
note that the lifted front leg mechanics are an additional burden to the back / suppleness as it requires harder work to bend.
i have followed most of his sons sired in germany and i have seen more of them fall than rise. archeron (westf licensing winner), all at once (another westf licensing winner, i believe), just to name the most prominent examples.
however, my very personal favourite from the first day on was nymphenburg’s first ampere at the hannoveriain licensing. literally the first ampere to me who came along as a complete horse with three gaites, incl walk.
plus, he looked very laid back. completely unspectacular. exactly the reason, i was pretty much left alone with my appreciation for him as there weren’t too many people and breeders fond of him at the licensing and even later on, in his first years under saddle.
why?
because this stallion is completey UNtypical and not like the sire at all, meaning he is old fashioned, heavy and the opposite of a modern horse.
oh well.
functionality over “look”,
no surprise to me that today first ampere is the most succesful son of his sire in the german yearbook.
i have ridden one licensed son of ampere myself, a very typical one:
spectacular mover, sensitive, little shy, completely lacking walk. exactly how i would describe younger jazz offspring under saddle, too. they are not mean or unwilling but they can be shy and sensitive and you better know what you are doing.
nothing wrong about ridability, they listen to aids and are fine in the mouth. the challenge is “spirit”. (again: my very personal opinion). i’ld say it takes an experienced rider to get them beyond themselves (i might be wrong, though).
but i sure wouldn’t want to have any of these for myself with no professional trainer aside to help day to day.
meaning:
not for me 7 days a week.
who else stands out?
there is franklin in the netherlands (one o/o 374 foals) in extremely professional hands and there is one overhere who just made his debut in intermediare, abbeglen. walk free and hindlegs out but a pi&pa machine. he was gelded one or two year ago to help his performance in sport.
having said all this and with no knowledge about the damline of ampere at all, to me he resambles a lot of his sire rousseau, positive and negative. the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
hats off to susan pape and how she manages fiorano.
belissimo.
surely having his weaknesses, too. slow hindleg and surely not the kind of horse you need for GP >70%. lacking the necessary speed and impulsion behind.
however:
he did make it to GP at 70% and that already speaks for himself.
walk is ok and regular but lacking stride o/o the frontleg.
however.
they seem to be ridable and as such make 99% of the market (amateur riders) happy.
since s.o. brought up benicio:
i consider him exactly the same like his sire, belissimo.
same weaknesses, not the kind of horse for GP > 70%, lacking the necessary speed and impulsion behind.
however:
he did make it to GP at 70% and that already speaks for himself.
same walk issue, same conclusion:
they seem to be ridable and as such make 99% of the market (amateur riders) happy.
i might be wrong though, since the first get under saddle doesn’t provide for a hig enough density (numbers) to really come up with valid observations yet (statistics/academically speaking).
however, i bred one of my mares ot belissimo twice and was lucky. the colt was sold and made it to the hannoverian licensing, wasn’t licensed, though (understandably, long/slow hindleg). i also got a filly and she obviously inherited her mother’s hindlegs’ speed and power. she spent two years in sports and won everything in 4, 5 and 6yr classes incl qualification for the bundeschampionat.
after that she has become my broodmare. her first foal became the hannoverian champion foal in westfalia. obviously, i was lucky again. i consider her my best broodmare.
i have bred to benicio three times so far and even though i do not expect such luck again (always consider slower/weaker hindlegs) i count on ridable horses to make 99% of the market happy, including myself (7 days a week, that is, with no professional trainer aside to help day to day). i kept the first filly from last year, the colt was sold to the stallion station standing benicio and maybe i get lucky again and he will be introduced to the licensing in two years from now. who knows.
back to bellissimo .
he sired 61 licensed sons of which 47 (77%) made it to the HB-1 status so far (9/2017).
meaning:
more than two third did pass their SPT to maintain their approval.
compare that to ampere.
he sired 2157 foals up until 2013, 895 of these have competed in sport so far.
42%.
compare that to ampere.
while i doubt there will be many future GP stars by belissimo i see many of them in the younger horse classes up to 7-9yr old st.george and i do consider them useful young rider horses (FEI U25 = st.george).
having said all that, again, these are my very personal opinions and there will be more knowledgeable people out there who know better or otherwise.
reason i did my best to also let numbers speak and i consider those reasonable and by relyable sources.
Hmmm, interesting responses re: the Ampere’s. I’m an AA who bred my own Ampere and I’ve pretty much brought her along myself. She is out of my De Niro/Rubinstein mare. She really doesn’t spook; she looks. She is not brave but if I am she is. I’ve found her to be a quick learner, happy when she’s praised and she is a worker. Doesn’t care for trail riding and begrudgingly goes, but loves the arena and wants to work hard. She is coming 6 and is a little behind because of a weird growth spurt last summer where we lost a couple of months of u/s time. She is definitely sensitive, but I wouldn’t call her hot. She tends to suck back when a little worried but will do as she’s asked. Her walk came from her mother and is outstanding, as are her trot and canter. She easily sits and will often offer too much. I have been very careful not to push her. I think she has her mother’s temperament, but where her mother is dominant and brave and wants to be left alone when ridden, the Ampere wants me to tell her what she needs to be doing every step of the way, then she is very happy to perform. Doesn’t like to be left to her own devices, I guess. She is also great in the bridle and has been since day one. I would not say she is for everyone - the gaits are big and bouncy and she is rubber ball that can contort herself in all kinds of positions and I need to be hyper aware of keeping her straight. She is also very forward. She is a mirror of her rider, so I don’t think anyone who worried or hesitated would be a good match for her; but it doesn’t matter, she’s staying with me
Most of the Ampere I have met have been difficult and more pro rides. I passed on two yearlings because they were super reactive and opinionated. I would only cross him on AA friendly mare lines such as Donnerhall or Rubinstein bloods to hopefully take out some of the spice. He seems to be a very good young horse class producer and shows a good auction trot to get money at sales but not sure I would trust one to be able to do a submissive and collected upper level test.
@impeggysue i really needed your post at this point in my journey with my Ampere 4 year old. He is still such a baby, and I can just tell emotionally- I shouldn’t push him right now. He’s so sensitive and thoughtful. He takes his work very seriously- which is why I keep the work sessions short and positive. Some people think I should push him more. I think that’s the wrong choice for him. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Thank you for sharing!
