An idiot needs advice please...

[00pisces]

I honestly wasn’t trying to say anything in particular about foxhunting. Somebody asked if anybody else was creeped out by gender-based attire rules, and the answer is yes; I find all gender-based attire rules to be creepy when they don’t have a practical application.

I believe several people have said it makes it easier to tell who is who in the hunt field. Cool. It didn’t occur to me that I should care whether the person mounted next to me is male or female, but the “Sir” or “Ma’am” example was both charming and convincing. I hear “HEY YOU” is impolite. And yes, I’m one of those lefty people who wishes we had more gender-neutral personal identifiers. Oh well.

I read over what I wrote again, and I can see why you think that I was afraid specifically about the COTH weekend, and why it came across like I thought that mean old biddies would hate me because of my clothes. I can see why it looked accusatory and off-kilter.

I wish now that I had just left it at, “Yeah, I think rules for what ladies should wear and what men should wear in general are a little creepy, but whatever! Looking forward to following hounds. Hope my boots are ok!” Guess I was feeling chatty and a little stuck in my head.

I mean, I’m hardly about to walk up to a Master and tell her off for having sexist rules. I might ask why the women’s dress was initially different from men’s (you know, like that thing about men and women’s buttons being on different sides of shirts because of dressing attendants), and might want to know why they’ve stuck with it. I’d be curious to know if Hunts feel that landowners would refuse access if the garb were to change. I hope that being curious and asking questions isn’t considered a bad attitude.

And it’s not like I think that “We just feel like it” is even a particularly bad answer. It’s just that I’d still want to figure out why! Why, why, why, why, why. I always want to know why.

Still, yes. In the absence of a practical reason for men and women to be dressed differently, my analysis is that it comes down to power and control, for just about any social activity. But I’m not unwilling to accept a practical answer–“the sir or ma’am” reason is fine for me. I know a lot of people from college who wouldn’t like it, but since there isn’t a widely-used, cross-generational, polite, gender neutral term for “Hey You,” I can get on board without feeling like a person who has abandoned her values for sport.

I save that for manhunting, not foxhunting.

[00pisces]

Bah, this has been an extraordinarily crappy day, and I feel terrible for insulting nice people. Wasn’t my intention. I am sorry.

[xeroxchick]

No Good Deed Will Go Unpunished

Lawt, Lawt. Swan, what a nightmare. You couldn’t force me to take these folks hunting. First of all, WAYYYYYY to chatty for the hunt field and second of all, if they are this riled over what we wear, what are they going to do if you account for a fox?!?!?!?!?

[gothedistance]

[QUOTE=JSwan;5943967]
Sorry -… The scarlet/rust is jarring but there is a story behind it.[/QUOTE]
Well, I for one want to hear the story! One of my hunt buddies rides with one of those “rust breeches” hunts, but I don’t ever remember her imparting the “why” - just that she was always being on the hunt for a nice pair of flared rusties.

[Trixie]

To be fair, that goes for the hunts where “if you’re all riding fast enough, nobody can see–or care–that your turnout isn’t perfect” applies (to paraphrase a delightfully refreshing attitude raised elsewhere on this forum).

Not all hunts have that attitude. I do know of guests who’ve been taken to task by the fashion police despite the best efforts of both guest and sponsor. It’s great when a serious effort is recognized, rather than criticized, and I hope that turns out to be the case for pisces.

It was always implied that as you participated more in the sport, your turnout would become more and more correct. For those of us getting their feet wet, however, we were welcomed to the sport in the best way that we could get there, although it was explained to us what correct was and where to find the rules. If we needed assistance in any way or needed to borrow an item, it was offered.

I suppose I was just fortunate to meet people who wouldn’t dream of being the sort who would “take to task” a newbie or guest who had made their best effort to be correct.

[wateryglen]

00Pisces - you wanna know why, why, why?

ALL sports have uniforms. If you want to take up that sport; you have to buy the uniform and the gear. NO you don’t get to wear what YOU want. And some sports have sex specific dress. Male & female swimmers don’t dress the same for a reason…it’s mostly cultural, sometimes physical (boobs require covering yes!?), often traditional. Some sports have nearly unisexual uniforms. Congratulate foxhunting for having nearly unisex uniforms!! . But if you want to go foxhunting; dress in the uniform. Look as good as you can if you want to make friends and be accepted. Whining ain’t gonna work!
And yes, there are sports I can’t take up because I can’t afford them either! So I don’t. I wanna yacht! This is your choice to try it so give it a go!!

There are consequences for non-conformance & looking different which I know you know well. Foxhunters didn’t create those biases/forms of discrimination…society did. It’s subtle but not all societies fault! Don’t complicate it! I might have some boots you could borry or some clothes/pants/coats. PM me/email me. I’m willing to help but I don’t wanna hear you complain about OUR traditions when you aren’t playing our sport yet. We don’t owe you any explanations about why…it just is, roll with it seesta! It’s fun to dress up, look good, have fun, even if the uniform is not unisex enough!!
Go ask a golfer why he uses woods or irons. Why aren’t they using a baseball bat instead of a hockey puck? Cuz it either makes sense for the sport or is a tradition. It’s YOUR responsibility to research our garb & traditions if you wanna play. Making us feel defensive is…a bad way to get started…or accepted…or liked. And being defensive yourself is self defeating.
Come, play…don’t argue or whine…roll with it before you judge!

[rivenoak]

[quote=JSwan;5943504]
But an asshat being an asshat is not the same as a Master or his/her designee berating a guest. And unless a club took an official position to embarrass a guest - you are out of line. [/quote]

You know what bothered me the most about the incident I reference? It was a Master who said it and made an ill-timed choice, IMO.

While I’m not sure about whether or not Masters at joint meets, held in someone else’s territory, should be chastising a participant about dress, I feel that it should be done out of the earshot of others.

On a positive note, I’m going to do a public shout-out here, to MFH Mary Hendricks of High Country Hounds, Flagstaff, AZ. 6+ years ago, at a Western Hunt Challenge, she graciously agreed that I could wear a parka over my hunt coat on a particularly blustery day. All it took for this to happen was for me to ask her permission.

[WNT]

I had the misfortune of my sponsor calling me at 7:30 in the morning (on my way out the door) telling me should couldn’t meet me at the hunt. It was cubbing season, and she was bringing me a tweed coat to wear. To my abject mortification, I put my solid navy show coat in the truck and hoped no one would be offended.

I found the very nice lady my sponsor referred me to and apologized for my turnout fail. She was very understanding, and let me know that “neat and tidy” was acceptable this time. Mind, this was a pretty traditional hunt; I think they were happy to have a new person experience how wonderful hunting is. I proceeded to have a lovely first time hunting, pleased that my horse stood at the checks and apologized for letting myself get carried away and straying from the back of the first flight on a great gallop through a cornfield. I had a wonderful time, and unfortunate budget constraints have prevented me from going out again, but that was one of the best frigid October mornings I’ve ever had.

That said, this was cubbing not formal season. I would not expect as much leeway for formal turnout. Making sure you are properly turned out reflects your respect for the hunt, and that you researched what you were getting in to. People in the hunts are great about helping newbies out, and borrowing is never a sin.

[WildBlue]

[QUOTE=JSwan;5943504]
But an asshat being an asshat is not the same as a Master or his/her designee berating a guest. And unless a club took an official position to embarrass a guest - you are out of line. [/QUOTE]

You know what? I clearly walked into a situation where people know each other IRL and have an axe to grind.

That said, I am not “out of line”. I am being deliberately vague on details because it really doesn’t matter and doesn’t need hashed and rehashed. The person involved was a Master and obviously having a bishy moment. It speaks well for the sport and people involved that most members are much more focused on sharing enjoyment of the hunt.

And, I might add, a big “no sh*t” rolly eyeballs on how much volunteer work goes into the sport (much like other horse sports and clubs). I’m ‘only’ a first year member in this club, but spent my first formal hunt afoot as one of the many volunteers making the event successful and have already loaned my clothes, boots, and horse to a prospective member wishing to try the sport. Having been a horse club officer, I’m pretty sure I ‘get’ how much effort it takes to even have a club, let alone a successful one.

Now, if that little rant where I was quoted was not actually directed at me, then I apologise for the 'tude. But if it was, I invite you to kiss my horse’s arse. Either way, I’m a sport and will still share my wine.

[ManyDogs]

OK, I’m an old biddy. I’m past AARP age. I was raised in The South. In the
'60s. In Richmond.
If I want to hunt, I don’t really care about “gender bias”. (gently, politely rolls eyes) I am hunting TO HUNT and what I am asked/supposed/required to wear is fine with me. It is a common courtesy and respect for the sport and yes, the tradition.
Manners. That’s what it is called. Manners. And I am not being mean or snarky.

[mildot]

[QUOTE=00pisces;5944229]
I honestly wasn’t trying to say anything in particular about foxhunting. Somebody asked if anybody else was creeped out by gender-based attire rules, and the answer is yes; I find all gender-based attire rules to be creepy when they don’t have a practical application. [/QUOTE]

You must go through life being creeped out 95% of the time.

[Gloria]

You know, I have to chuckle by some people annoyed because the very minor difference in dress between male/female hunters.

They obviously have no idea what a “real” gender inequality is.

Power? Control?

Wait till you cannot drive because you are a female; wait till you have to serve every male in the family, including your male siblings, because you are a female; wait till you have to make coffee for your male colleague at your workplace because you are a female; wait till you are not allowed to speak up against any male colleage at a meeting, because you are a female; wait till you are looked down upon by all your relations because you want to pursue a career, because you are a female; wait till you are labeled a bad wife if you don’t produce hot meals before your husband at set times; wait till… wait till …

Then you know what gender inequality really mean.

[00pisces]

Bah, double post! 00pisces, out.

[00pisces]

[QUOTE=ManyDogs;5945414]
OK, I’m an old biddy. I’m past AARP age. I was raised in The South. In the
'60s. In Richmond.
If I want to hunt, I don’t really care about “gender bias”. (gently, politely rolls eyes) I am hunting TO HUNT and what I am asked/supposed/required to wear is fine with me. It is a common courtesy and respect for the sport and yes, the tradition.
Manners. That’s what it is called. Manners. And I am not being mean or snarky.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I reeeeeeaaaaallly regret sharing my opinions at all. I did so because I was suffering from the delusion that the COTH Hunting Forum is not a part of the hunt field. My mistake.

I also believed, incorrectly, that it’s better to try to keep your posts horse-related even when what you’re saying is really about the world at large, with a tiny effect on the horse world.

I’m going to do my best to follow the rules. I’m doing my best to learn more.

As for what’s in my head–opinions AND neurotic obsessions–well, that’s kind of my business. I shared them because I thought that’s what this sort of place is for; discussion, discourse, thoughts, and ideas. I hate that sharing my thoughts has irritated and offended people that I like and know, but I can’t take it back.

My real life experiences with foxhunters has never been anything short of wonderful. Hunter’s Rest is my hero. Wateryglen has always been super helpful and kind towards me. I’ve met JSwan and Hinderella and quite enjoyed their company. I’ve gone on hunt trail rides and stayed for the picnics. I brought things for picnics. Of the many different people I have met, I haven’t met a single person that I’ve wanted to avoid.

I’ve been following most of the hunting conversations since I started using the COTH forums because I wanted to learn as much as I could. If I were to go with what I read on COTH, I would expect a very different set of personalities than what I’ve actually encountered. I can only hope that I come across better IRL than I have come across here.

To mildot: Well, no, because there’s a difference between a rule and a custom. I wear women’s suiting to the office, but I wouldn’t get written up for wearing well-fitting men’s suiting. It’s the “rule” part that bugs me. If it’s tradition and you feel like it, awesome, go for it! I love dresses, but I wouldn’t want to live in a world where I’m constantly being urged to wear one, or ostracized if I don’t.

To Gloria and anybody else who cares to know: I’m happy to discuss, off-forum, gender inequity, tradition, and dress. It’s an interest of mine. I agree that all of the things you mentioned are much, much, much more important than rules of attire.

[Jennifer_Alcott]

[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;5936584]
Jennifer, Oh, trust me I know it VERY well! Kali has, in fact, been called “vulgar” by several older members of local hunts due to her color…[/QUOTE]

Wow. Just…WOW. I suspect there’s a bit of jealousy at play there–jealous of both the horse AND you. I’d be tempted to spray paint zebra stripes on her and REALLY give them something to talk about.

[QUOTE=SidesaddleRider;5936584]
That is a good matrix, and the person who wrote it does have a very good grasp of attire; but again, you will notice that they do clarify that it is only what is proper for Bull Run (their targeted audience), as 98% of it corresponds to correct attire - but that 2% (including that ladys w/o colors can wear frocks) is not “correct.”[/QUOTE]

I hear what you’re saying, but the problem is this: who decides what era we’re going to base the definition of “correct” on? I understand that you personally base your definition of “correct” on the 1920s and 1930s era (and I would love to see any links or scanned images of the documentation from that period that states that frock coats are not correct for women), but even in an ultra-traditional sport like foxhunting, “correct” is a moving target. The standards change from decade to decade.

Personally, I’m enough of a turnout snob that I was actually HORRIFIED when someone (the MFHA? Horse Country? Can’t remember!) published new guidelines on turnout that stated that black gloves were acceptable for formal attire! Oh, the horrors! I nearly had the vapors…

So someone could take that to mean that black gloves are “correct” for formal attire. Of course, you and I will ALWAYS know that that just isn’t so…

JTA
P.S. I don’t think any horse of mine has been called “vulgar”, but I’ll bet the term has been used to describe me!

[wireweiners]

[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;5933953]
No doubt that it absolutely sucks that your friend’s DH can’t count on the people he’s putting his life on the line for to do the right thing for his family. Nobody here (I hope) would dispute that.

But - whether or not women without colors wear frock coats won’t affect the pig-headed bigotry that caused your friend’s situation. Would that it were that easy to fix, no? That kind of change comes from the inside of people, not the outside.

I don’t see correct turnout as a hurtful, exclusive tradition.

Here’s an ecclesiastical example (chosen because Lord knows if anyone loves tradition, it’s Episcopalians :rolleyes: ): in South Carolina, we are about to have a big split with our national church over whether or not to ordain gay clergy. So, a hurtful exclusive tradition is: clergy must be heterosexual. In my own parish, a wonderful gay couple have been prevented from being lay Eucharistic ministers by this kind of nonsense. I think that’s awful, and sends a message to our gay parishioners that they are somehow less than straight people.

But we also have a tradition that women wear red to church on Pentecost Sunday. That, to me, is a comforting tradition. When I go to church and see women wearing red on that day, it reminds me of home and family and gives me a nice warm feeling. I don’t see that tradition in the same light as the other.

Does that make any sense at all?[/QUOTE]

I thought everybody wore red on Pentacost Sunday, the females wore red dresses, the men, red neckties. But then I haven’t been to church in a coon’s age.

When I read Rita Mae Brown’s foxhunting novels I often wondered if real fox hunters were as anal about turnout as the characters in Ms. Brown’s stories. I am delighted to find out that you are! I find your sport fascinating, with all its rules and traditions and I love watching/listening to good hounds on a trail. Although for me, it’s field trialing dachshunds and coonhound.

[lizathenag]

no need to be uncivil

[QUOTE=xeroxchick;5944399]
You couldn’t force me to take these folks hunting.[/QUOTE]

Really. A reasonable question was asked. Why are hunts still following gender based clothing rules? Bathing suits are not a good example. Those gender differences in uniform are anatomy (and decency) based. Tradition for tradition’s sake is not a good reason. It used to be tradition to have slaves.

Evidently a nerve has been hit. I am one of “these folks” someone couldn’t be forced to take hunting. I am one of “these folks” whose land has been hunted over. I have been hunting since the early 60s. My family has paneled their fence lines for the hunt.

There is no need to be rude. I am not clear why this is such an upsetting question. No one is talking while the hounds are working.

[mildot]

[QUOTE=lizathenag;5946478]
Tradition for tradition’s sake is not a good reason.[/QUOTE]
One again, so long as a lot of other people disagree with that, you are just going to have to take it.

Maybe you and 00pisces should save your indignation about gender roles for the muslim world. Talk about retrograde…

And the slavery comparison is a total non-sequitur.

[JSwan]

Foxhunting is comparable to slavery?

Talk about jumping the shark…

All this thread needs is a reference to Hitler and the Jews, a few drunken houseguests, and alters all claiming to be receiving a deluge of PM’s from people who agree with them. Then it can join the ranks of one of the dumbest trainwrecks on this BB.

If you are going to sit around muttering at your belly, perhaps medication and therapy is in order.

[wateryglen]

I asked the masters!

Wateryglens figure is just BEGGING for a frock coat so I’m looking around. That’s the only reason I wants one :winkgrin:…well that and I looks wonderful in one and percieve they’re warmer. But I’m a new member in my current hunt so I asked 2 mfh’s (one current and one former from a different hunt I had colors with) if it was ok for a member withOUT colors to wear a frock coat.
#1 said “Well I guess it’s ok but really it’s traditional that members with colors wear frocks. I mean, I wouldn’t send you home if you get one. But what I really object to is THE NUMBER OF BUTTONS that are appearing on the frocks and new styles of coats (dressage coats especially). They all have 4 buttons!! Members/guests are only supposed to have 3 buttons. 4 buttons are reserved for staff. MFH’s/huntsman wear 5 button coats.”
#2 said " Yeah they’re ok but it’s supposed to be a 3 button coat even if it’s a frock! :eek: People forget that! Hunts don’t mind anymore about frocks vs. regular meltons these days. I mean, you were supposed to have sewn in bridles too or brown gloves or derbies! Nobody’s doing that anymore! Times have changed"
Message I got? Buttons matter more!
How ‘bout dat!!? Just a small inquiry before I plunk down the moola. I’m gettin’ a frock and wearing it with a big smile…someday!! Someday…
But will it make my butt look fat!!? :D:lol: