An idiot needs advice please...

[00pisces]

I think the insidious part of the rules regarding what men and women should wear in the hunt field is the implied ostracism if you fail to meet the standards of dress. Acquired a frock by accident? Can’t afford to take a financial hit by consigning it and buying a new one? Well, you can’t join OUR club. You’re too disrespectful. And if you dare to disagree with our rules, then we’ll whip out the Tradition card and claim that you just don’t “get it.” Also, you might be ill-bred.

And hey, it’s a private club, and private clubs can set their own rules, and I don’t dispute that or disagree with that right, but I’m absolutely going to sit on top of my big white horse and wonder who the rules really serve.

From a sociological perspective–understand that I am not claiming a grand conspiracy–I think that the enforcement of rules regarding male and female dress is a lingering impulse to categorize and segregate people as a way to concentrate and identify control and power. When I hear the argument that things should be done a certain way because it’s “tradition” and it’s “not hurting anyone” I always think that that’s what is really going on–when the attire rules have no practical application, then insisting on adherence to them is ultimately about bending an entire class of people to the will of a few.

Which is why I find it wrong, from a moral standpoint. But from a practical standpoint, I don’t really care.

Of all the hunting attire rules, the ones I would grouse about are 1) Patent leather tops for women with colors (patent leather is ugly; I’d rather have brown tops), 2) Frock coats being reserved for women with colors (they would be much more flattering on my figure, and look more comfortable), and 3) Stock ties being made of scratchy things (ok, mine hasn’t come yet, but all the cotton ones in pictures and video LOOK scratchy, and silk was out as we have a history of not getting along). Of those, stock ties being firm probably has best practical application–if you’re going to use it as a sling, you want it to be sturdy. I would complain about it being uncomfortable, but not unfair, because it’s not a gender-based rule.

Aaaaand none of this matters, because I’m going out formally for the first time on the 12th.

Also! If we wanted to get really crazy with this debate about attire and function, then why the call for muted colors? We’re predators, and when you’re following hounds, you’re not exactly a stealth predator. It would be far more natural for the whole field to be dressed in scarlet, astride loudly spotted horses.

When I win the lottery, I’ll get my own pack, and require that everybody wear blaze orange frocks. I will call it a safety measure, and I will ridicule anyone who dares to wear anything but a large and ornate stock pin–extra points for vulgarity. But I won’t un-invite rule breakers, because at the end of the day, all I will care about is that I got to spend it on horseback, following hounds, viewing a fox, in country that is still open, and that all parties returned home safely. And anybody who agrees with me will be welcome, regardless of the way their coat is cut or what it’s cut from, because there are precious few people like that remaining.

ETA: Regarding that matrix of turnout options, did you notice that if the turnout rules for juniors are the same as the turnout rules for an adult, then it is “Same as Lady”? It’s tantamount to saying that an adult woman’s parallel . . . is a child.

[Madeline]

I’m waiting here for a man to come and bitch about not being allowed his patent boot tops.

00pisces, you lose a little credibility with this line:“Aaaaand none of this matters, because I’m going out formally for the first time on the 12th. ;-)”

Have you ever worn a cotton stock? Let us know how scratchy they really are…

Best concentrate on your behavior and that of your horse. Screwing that up will get you much more bad attention than a little attire faux pas.

I love that the matrix doesn’t even addrress the issue of shadbellies…

[JSwan]

This political correctness sociological psychobabble has no place in the hunt field.

If people are so seriously screwed up that wearing a black jacket and tan britches makes you suicidal or outraged, I submit you need to trade in your spurs for medication and years of therapy.

Seriously, people. Politics and PC bullshit has no place in the hunt field. We are not your lab rats. You are supposed to be listening for hounds, not obsessing over the possibility at somewhere among the 7 billion people that inhabit this earth, someone might cry themselves to sleep over the color of your boot tops

You know, I never hear this crap when I’m hunting any other species. Good God. Are your helmets too tight?

Oh, and the notion at a person has to spend a fortune just to cap or start out? Another load of BS. While a beautifully appointed and stylish rider is very much admired, especially on high holy days, there is NO requirement that anyone spend fortunes on their attire. Plain,neat and tidy. Clean horse with well fitted
and clean tack. Starting out? No problem. Listen, learn, and be a good sport. Acquire things little by little, buying secondhand is great!

A person is not going to be welcome any hunt club for any species if you arrive with an attitude and a chip on your shoulder. Try going duck hunting and ridicule their customs and traditions and see how well you are accepted. Or invited back. Perhaps the hunters aren’t the snobs, but the person with the attitude IS.

Geez, people. The traditions of foxhunting are not some Machiavellian plot to subjugate women, children or any other human being. Traditions and customs exist for every other form of hunting, or do none of you know anything about hunting in the US? Or anything about ritual and custom?

Perhaps reading some Joseph Campbell is in order.

[00pisces]

Of course it has no place in the hunt field. That’s why I put it on the internet, where it belongs. :-p

I think I didn’t make this clear, and I apologize for that: It’s not the attire rules of foxhunting specifically that I find objectionable, it’s attire rules based on gender, anywhere, for any sport, any activity, any social function. I find them illogical and inherently sexist–I’ll skip explaining why, because I’d like to keep this somewhat horse-related!

Regarding tradition: I know a lot of people find comfort in tradition and place a high personal value on tradition. I’m not one of them–which isn’t to say I don’t find certain traditions interesting or fun! I just think that I owe it myself to not accept traditions blindly. I don’t want to take the world as it is handed to me. I want to examine it, understand it, and make it better if I can; I find comfort in knowing that things can change. In the end, for me it’s almost always worthwhile to go along with traditions, even if I find the reasoning behind them to be weak. I value the camaraderie that comes with following a tradition more than taking a stand over something that isn’t causing direct harm.

I think we’re on the same page regarding what we want out of hunting–we want to enjoy watching the hounds work, and not have to worry about anything other than hunting while we’re out there, right?

Honestly, yes, I did fret a great deal over boots. I have these massive calves, you see . . . and despite my best efforts, I was unable to find a pair of leather dress boots (or field boots, for that matter) at a price point I was comfortable with (there’s only one brand that carried it, and when I tried them on, I thought they felt cheap and like they wouldn’t survive a dismount into a puddle, making them a pretty bad buy at any price). On Saturday, I’ll be wearing a pair of Mountain Horse winter riding boots, and yes, I will be fighting the insecurity that comes from knowing it’s wrong and being afraid that people will think I didn’t know or care to get it right, and will be fighting the urge to apologize (to every single properly attired person I meet) for my inconveniently fat calves. When you see me on Saturday, you’ll know that the therapy and meds have been working if I don’t immediately blurt out all my sins and beg for absolution and anxiously wait for you to tell me that it’s alright.

To be fair, Hunter’s Rest has assured me multiple times that I would probably be fine with half chaps and my brown paddock boots (if I polish them as dark as I can get them), or that I could get a pair that doesn’t fit my calves and have gussets put in . . . but my reasoning was that it may be ok once or twice but I’d like to actually start hunting as much as I can (I meant to do it last year, but I had an injury that kept me out of the saddle), and I’m just not going to be able to afford custom boots anytime soon. I have never had much luck with gussets; I wouldn’t trust gussets and my leg shape on a long ride across country. I think the boots would slip and grow bulky around the ankles, running the risk of getting snagged on something.

Anyway, I’m making due with the best that I can do, and I have put a lot of thought and time into it. I’ve wanted to hunt since I was a kid, and it matters to me to get it right, because I want to be invited back! While I shouldn’t care if other people don’t like my boots, if it affects whether I’m welcome pursuing a hobby I’ve dreamed about since I was a kid (and that I know I love from the whopping two times I hunted informally), then yeah, I care.

[JSwan]

The ONLY thing that’s important is showing up. Brush your teeth. Comb your hair. Wear clean clothes.

Don’t forget to set your alarm.

Don’t overthink this or you will fret so much you’ll give yourself a migraine. It’s third field. You’ll be among people who WANT to see you succeed. That’s the whole point of these COTH foxhunting adventures. To get folks out foxhunting. I promise you no one holds an inspection or examines the label on your jacket.

If you decide to take up the sport, then you will be ushered into the super secret society of bargain hunting, Foxhunter style.

None of the attire has to be super expensive. Heck, some of mine came from the feed store and Wal-Mart, and I am always well turned out. Heck, foxhunting is the only time I don’t look like a homeless person.

Relax. Smile. You’ll have a blast. And the moment you see the glorious panorama and hear those hounds you’ll understand why people are so passionate about this sport.

[MichMort]

You know, I like knowing at a glance: which attire is mine and which is my husband’s, when getting dressed on hunt mornings; from anywhere in the field, I can start to figure out who is who by their attire. I actually find cub hunting a bit more distracting, in that I’m not following a red coat (our female and male staff all wear red). There’s too much earth-colored tweed out there cub-hunting. On a side note: it would be fine if we did not all wear white stocks–my smoochie’s stocks are XL, and go around my neck three times, if I don’t realize I’ve grabbed one of his…

[00pisces]

[QUOTE=MichMort;5941920]
You know, I like knowing at a glance: which attire is mine and which is my husband’s, when getting dressed on hunt mornings; from anywhere in the field, I can start to figure out who is who by their attire. I actually find cub hunting a bit more distracting, in that I’m not following a red coat (our female and male staff all wear red). There’s too much earth-colored tweed out there cub-hunting. On a side note: it would be fine if we did not all wear white stocks–my smoochie’s stocks are XL, and go around my neck three times, if I don’t realize I’ve grabbed one of his…[/QUOTE]

Hehehe . . . I’ll start dressing like a girl when I find a husband, and not a minute before! JK, I know that I won’t find a husband until I put some lipstick on.

[Trixie]

I think the insidious part of the rules regarding what men and women should wear in the hunt field is the implied ostracism if you fail to meet the standards of dress. Acquired a frock by accident? Can’t afford to take a financial hit by consigning it and buying a new one? Well, you can’t join OUR club. You’re too disrespectful. And if you dare to disagree with our rules, then we’ll whip out the Tradition card and claim that you just don’t “get it.” Also, you might be ill-bred.

Honestly? That really sounds like a personal issue. :rolleyes:

I feel that in my rather limited hunting experience, I have been nothing but welcomed - in black field boots, in my show clothes, in a borrowed or secondhand whatever. People have gone out of their way to offer to lend me anything I needed, to invite me along, to offer me their house so we don’t have to leave at three a.m.

The only thing that they’ve asked of me is to be appropriately respectful of the way that things are done. And they’re more then happy to teach me how they do things and to help.

Of course, there are implied bonus points if you ride a well-behaved or good jumping horse.

While I shouldn’t care if other people don’t like my boots, if it affects whether I’m welcome pursuing a hobby I’ve dreamed about since I was a kid (and that I know I love from the whopping two times I hunted informally), then yeah, I care.

Actually, your boots don’t affect your welcome. What affects your welcome is your attitude about the sport.

That’s why it’s really hard for me to listen to someone rant about how “the enforcement of rules regarding male and female dress is a lingering impulse to categorize and segregate people as a way to concentrate and identify control and power.”

Because, to paraphrase, it makes my rolly-eye muscles hurt.

[FitToBeTied]

There is one hunt in Virginia where gentlemen with colors wear a scarlet coat and rust britches. Now that’s offensive to the eyes. I’m sure if the women had to wear that they’d change the attire rules pretty quickly.

[rustbreeches]

[QUOTE=FitToBeTied;5942700]
There is one hunt in Virginia where gentlemen with colors wear a scarlet coat and rust britches. Now that’s offensive to the eyes. I’m sure if the women had to wear that they’d change the attire rules pretty quickly.[/QUOTE]

Bite your tongue!! Rust goes with everthing:lol::lol::lol:

Not really, I know. But in the world in my head, it does!!

[WildBlue]

[QUOTE=Trixie;5942633]
Actually, your boots don’t affect your welcome. What affects your welcome is your attitude about the sport. [/QUOTE]

To be fair, that goes for the hunts where “if you’re all riding fast enough, nobody can see–or care–that your turnout isn’t perfect” applies (to paraphrase a delightfully refreshing attitude raised elsewhere on this forum).

Not all hunts have that attitude. I do know of guests who’ve been taken to task by the fashion police despite the best efforts of both guest and sponsor. It’s great when a serious effort is recognized, rather than criticized, and I hope that turns out to be the case for pisces.

[rivenoak]

@WildBlue;5943200

Not all hunts have that attitude. I do know of guests who’ve been taken to task by the fashion police despite the best efforts of both guest and sponsor. It’s great when a serious effort is recognized, rather than criticized, and I hope that turns out to be the case for pisces.

I’ve seen public criticisms of dress and found it quite tacky on the part of the critic.

There’s a polite way to handle things.

I often wonder if some of these hunts where you will hear things like horses being described as vulgar, due to color, or being rude about a visitor’s dress, tolerate the comments because they don’t want/need new members?

Or, maybe hunt member delivering the message is just an old prune.

[JSwan]

@FitToBeTied;5942700

There is one hunt in Virginia where gentlemen with colors wear a scarlet coat and rust britches. Now that’s offensive to the eyes. I’m sure if the women had to wear that they’d change the attire rules pretty quickly.

Two.

And no, the attire rules haven’t changed.

There is a story about why those hunts wear rust, by the way. An interesting piece of history.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

[QUOTE=JSwan;5943475]
Two.

And no, the attire rules haven’t changed.

There is a story about why those hunts wear rust, by the way. An interesting piece of history.[/QUOTE]

I thought it was just so the red clay wouldn’t show.:lol: I grew up in Upstate SC and never owned a pair of white pants because of the stuff.

[JSwan]

Oh puhleeze.

There are asshats in all disciplines - and hunting is no exception. The nice thing is - gravity affects them too - and karma’s a bitch. :winkgrin:

But an asshat being an asshat is not the same as a Master or his/her designee berating a guest. And unless a club took an official position to embarrass a guest - you are out of line.

As far as pisces goes - her attitude is what will determine whether or not she feels welcome. No one in that club, this forum, or involved in planning these COTH weekends has any preconceived notions, nor will she be made to feel unwelcome. Quite the opposite.

I’ve hunted with that club and know many of the people in it. She does them, the sport, and the COTH posters who have gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to encourage newcomers a tremendous disservice. As do you.

Do you know how much work is involved in these COTH get togethers? Organizing and entire weekend of hunting - and associated social activities intended to show these people a good time? They don’t just get to foxhunt - they are invited out with a footpack, too. And on one of those weekends a COTH poster paid all their cap fees with that footpack. Geez - how unwelcoming. :rolleyes:

We’ve all volunteered to do this. No one is getting paid - people are opening their HOMES, offering free horses or livery, organizing and making sure details are attended to - just so newcomers can come out, relax, smile, and have a grand time with one of the best hunt clubs in the United States.

The only criticism I’m seeing is that of a bunch of people who don’t even hunt or know anything about the sport - already bitching about imaginary gender politics and ridiculing customs and traditions they can’t even describe.

The commentary is way over the top - and undeserved. No one has been anything but polite, friendly and welcoming.

@WildBlue;5943200

Not all hunts have that attitude. I do know of guests who’ve been taken to task by the fashion police despite the best efforts of both guest and sponsor. It’s great when a serious effort is recognized, rather than criticized, and I hope that turns out to be the case for pisces.

[Gloria]

I have been wearing my one and only frock coat to the very limited huntings I’ve been to. Nobody said anything and I never felt unwelcomed.

Though, one time, I was addressed from behind as, “Sir…” :(. Didn’t understand how anyone could mistaken my gender and was actually piqued at the time. I guess I know the reason now…

[whicker]

The basic uniform is just that

I got clapped on the shoulder, from behind, in a man-to-man comraderie by a gentleman foxhunter at one of my first hunts. It was accompanied by the cheery, “Well, son, did you have a grand time chasing foxes?”

He was mortified, when I turned toward him, and he discovered that I was not only quite female, but had on enough make-up to emphasize the point. And I was his hostess at the breakfast…:eek:

I always thought it was an amusing genuine error. And that I needed a better fitting jacket…:winkgrin:

[Hinderella]

I have been the recipient of the wonderful hospitality of the Coth hunts, and I can certainly confirm that if Pisces, or any other guest, can set aside all this silliness about gender issues in clothing, they will have an amazing experience.

My Coth hosts, the members of the hunt, the other Coth guests, even the retailers in Warrenton and Middleburg were happy to help me, a newcomer, learn the ropes. But the newcomer must be willing to learn, and open to the hunt experienceas it exists. Tradition is inseperable from any other part of the hunt experience.

Quite honestly, if the traditions of foxhunting somehow offend you, perhaps it’s just not the sport for you.

[FitToBeTied]

Jswan: I beg to differ. ODH wears the scarlet/rust combination. RH, the other hunt that I know of that wears rust britches, wears scarlett/tan for gentlemen with colors and Black/rust for women with colors.

Now if there is another hunt out there wearing scarlet/rust then I have not heard of them.

[JSwan]

Sorry - I was focusing on the rust! The scarlet/rust is jarring but there is a story behind it.