For those interested…
This entire “article” is lifted almost completely from Dr. McCall’s book, which is pretty old.
Personally, I had a stallion who was pasturebreeding and we found him with a fractured femur and he had to be put down. Never was sure if it was a mare, or trip when he dismounted, or even absolutely nothing to do with breeding, but it scared me enough to not want to try it again.
Also, he had 5 mares in with him and by mid-season both he AND the mares were banged up pretty good…nothing terminal (except that broken leg), but he looked terrible and so did most of the mares.
I think much depends on the stallion and how he is raised AND the amount of space you have. You need to give them loads of space (20+ acres or more) so everyone can get away if they need to.
And I would question his info on fertility rates as well…I think modern research has found out differently. I know that one year we tried it (because I was infirm), o/o 5 mares only ONE conceived, which was much lower than my stallion’s normal…
Not saying it can’t work, but he makes it sound so easy and trouble free, and from my personal experience, it’s far from that.
It also seems to totally ignore the risk of twins. :no:
I must know - what does pasture breeding have to do with twins???
We pasture bred our TB stallion who is a sweet heart last year. To date, no scrapes, bruises or injuries to anyone…fingers crossed…
[QUOTE=Riverotter;7316520]
I must know - what does pasture breeding have to do with twins???[/QUOTE]
They don’t mention checking for twins, appears like they are just letting nature take her course.
I personally used pasture breeding on one mare that was a difficult to get in foal mare. We were CERTAIN she was in heat before things proceeded. She was also the type that would breed a fencepost (literally she broke down when she was being unloaded from the trailer at the shed - I was like are you serious ?). Our breeding varies quite a bit from most as we do two covers twice a day for three days straight (or as long as the mare will stand - some more some less). I don’t twitch, just a little ace and chain over the nose. If they won’t stand that way, then obviously they aren’t ready. My stud is a gentleman to breed and extremely easy to handle so makes things wonderful. With this particular mare, we did the in hand breedings, then afterwards, we turned them out together all day and night in a five acre field. Normally he is very enthusiastic about breeding, and he did one cover the third day, but refused the second time. Preferred to eat grass. The mare would stand, but wasn’t nearly as excited about him either. She had ovulated and it was pretty cool to see him acknowledge that. I believe it does have benefits if utilized correctly. Would I just turn him out with a herd of mares that I didn’t know their status and say have at it ? Absolutely not, but with a mare I know is in heat, especially after seeing him leave her alone after ovulation, I’d have no problem, though we have bred live cover and through collection as well. This mare was a particularly unique case and one I knew well as I had owned her for several years. It was kind of a last ditch effort as she was barren for three years and she was not suitable for another option outside of that, so it was baby or she needed to find a new home.
Another friend of mine, stood a stallion Pine Ridge at Dreamtime Farm. A lovely cox’s ridge tb stud. When she got him, he refused to breed in hand. As a result, she turned him out with a harem of mares that again she confirmed were in season with excellent fertility rates even into his older years. I’ve lost touch with her, and he would be quite aged now if still alive (I know she quit standing him to outside mares several years ago) but I know that she kept him turned out year round with an aged mare year round and he loved it. I don’t believe she ever regretted her decision to breed him in that manner. However, her WB stallions she bred through collection (on site).
Dr. McCall’s book may be old, however I do think it still poses some valid points and can be a good resource. Especially since he understands that a show stallion is going to have a different need/schedule than a race stallion. Especially when it comes to marketing and stud fee adjustments. Steve Johnson from Margeux Farm wrote the forward and alot of what I learned with handling stallions came from my time there as he was more than willing to teach me. I still respect him and his knowledge, and appreciate his willingness to educate me.
In short, live cover in any form is going to be more dangerous than collection with a dummy. You are dealing with two minds and the people involved. If everyone is not vigilant to the little things there can be and have been terrible results. If you are going to pasture breed, I wouldn’t do it as part of a herd situation, I would do it one on one with a mare I knew was in season and stood. I would be hesitant with a maiden, at a minimum I would breed her in hand prior to the turnout. I do believe pasture breeding has it’s benefits and I do know of more than one case where it was the only way a difficult mare conceived. I do think the studs know more than us when telling if a mare is ready. I do think mares are a great teaching tool for young studs. However, I feel a large population of mares with one stud just turned out is a recipe for disaster. One on one with a in season mare, not a problem. Crap happens sometimes and it sucks, things can go wrong in collection as well. My stallion is a horrendously slow breeder collecting with a dummy. I have not tried collecting off a live mare. With a regular mare, he is easy, so if I have the option especially with my personal mares, I’m going live cover. However, to each his own.
What is the difference between a live mare and a regular mare? I would imagine dead mares have a poor conception rate.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;7316744]
What is the difference between a live mare and a regular mare? I would imagine dead mares have a poor conception rate.[/QUOTE]
[edit] live mare as opposed to a dummy for collection. [edit]
[QUOTE=Wits End Eventing;7316691]
We pasture bred our TB stallion who is a sweet heart last year. To date, no scrapes, bruises or injuries to anyone…fingers crossed…[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear - was that the one that was gelded or a different one ? How did you fare pregnancy rate wise ? I’m curious to hear how that went. Always interested in hearing other people’s experiences.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7317391]
You’re an idiot - live mare as opposed to a dummy for collection. Obviously not intelligent enough to discern the difference.[/QUOTE]
So a live mare is a live mare and a regular mare is a dummy? Reporting to mods.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7317391]
You’re an idiot - live mare as opposed to a dummy for collection. Obviously not intelligent enough to discern the difference.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Rude.
Back to topic.
We have our stud out 24/7/365 with his harem and babies. He is a gentleman who understands “no” and the mares are ladies until they are raging whores. No accidents, no twins, and great pictures of the stud sharing his food or scratches with his babies. All the mares get in foal every year. They’re happy, he’s happy. The adjustment we make when adding new mares is to bring him in to a paddock, let the new mare out (even if she’s been in with him before she is a new mare to the herd), wait until she and the other mares have sorted things out, and then let him back in. The girls rule the world and he is happy to come along for the ride.
I am not criticizing your arrangement, Canterbury. I do have a question, though. How do you guard against twins? I assume that when pasture breeding, you do not know if a mare double ovulates. Do you do pregnancy checks a certain number of days after seeing a mare bred? If not, how do you know if a mare has conceived twins and eliminate one?
If they are pastured out on the back 40 as a range breeding set up, it’s hard. My set up is more “east coast” as in fields are close to the barn and I do bring in at night - horses can be monitored as you go about daily chores. As horses are not discrete its easy enough to look up and see who is being bred and make a note of it so you can do ultrasounds x days after last cover with reasonable accuracy.
[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7316733]
Our breeding varies quite a bit from most as we do two covers twice a day for three days straight (or as long as the mare will stand - some more some less). With this particular mare, we did the in hand breedings, then afterwards, we turned them out together all day and night in a five acre field. Normally he is very enthusiastic about breeding, and he did one cover the third day, but refused the second tim[/QUOTE]
I won’t go into your “normal” breeding program of 2 covers 3 days in a row; even the "old timers’ kept it down to every other day till the mare refuses. Cannot possibly see the advantage of your “system”, and plenty of disadvantages. However, as you said, to each his own. …I just know Dr. McCalll doesn’t advocate anything like this…
But if the stallion & mare were turned out “night and day” in 5 acres, you have absolutely zero idea of how many times he actually covered her.
I once leased a fine old Arab gentleman (horse;)) mostly as a teaser and he had been a pasture stallion his whole life. I think he was 18 when I got him.
Well, I was allowed to breed afew mares to him, and I wanted to breed one of my (maiden) Teke mares. So we tried hand-breeding and the mare just totally freaked out and literally tore away, dragging me afew yards before I let go. That ticked me off so much I just pulled off her halter & lead rope and turned her loose w/ the stallion in a 3-5 acre field for a week.
I was home alot then, and NEVER, EVER saw them within 20 ft of each other. Each day the mare would be in one corner looking like a frightened virgin and the stallion would be in the other corner, huffing & puffing like he was going to have a heart attack.
But she DID turn up pregnant and had a lovely filly. I eventually sold her to a gal who does ONLY pasture breeding and she’s had a foal every year, so I guess she finally got to like it…;).
And that’s what happens in “Nature”; if the mare is in season, even if she isn’t willing, the stallion will basically run her down, biting and intimidating her till she finally submits. i watched my guy do this a number of time w/unsure maidens. Some stallions will “woo” but others just insist.
During my only other experience w/pasture breeding I often saw 2 mares come into heat at the same time, and the dominant mare would actually chase the lower ranking mare away from the stallion whenever the two were close…like she was saying “Me! Me!” So the dominant mare got “overbred” and the lower ranking mare didn’t get bred at all.
Again, I have heard of cases where it worked just fine, and out here many of the big QH ranches do it this way…but their “herds” are out on hundreds & hundreds of acres. They don’t check for twins, but I suspect any mare who routinely aborts or doesn’t conceive is simply culled from the band. Period.
Many outfits don’t attend the foalings either…the babies are born out on the range just like mustangs…
We pasture bred our new TB stallion this year. He was a maiden as were 3 of 4 mares we bred. We hand bred him to each mare - only had one mare in heat at a time as planned - then turned the “in heat” mare loose with him until she was out of heat. One mare we never saw covered…they must have waited for the sun to go down, but she is in foal. That made four for four in foal on one heat each. Not too shabby. The stallion usually has a companion QH pony living with him, so we thought he would be well mannered…he was…even offered to share his grain and stood grazing side by side or groomed each other after the deed was done!! Not so much as a skinned place on any of the horses and when the last mare was out of heat (stud stopped any teasing when he “knew” the mare was out). The mare was returned to the mare field and the pony put back with the stud. We watched for signs of aggression…both pony and stud postured as if to say, “What the he** have YOU been doing”, touched noses and walked to the run-in shed!! The experience worked well for us.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7318224]
I won’t go into your “normal” breeding program of 2 covers 3 days in a row; even the "old timers’ kept it down to every other day till the mare refuses. Cannot possibly see the advantage of your “system”, and plenty of disadvantages. However, as you said, to each his own. …I just know Dr. McCalll doesn’t advocate anything like this…
But if the stallion & mare were turned out “night and day” in 5 acres, you have absolutely zero idea of how many times he actually covered her.
I once leased a fine old Arab gentleman (horse;)) mostly as a teaser and he had been a pasture stallion his whole life. I think he was 18 when I got him.
Well, I was allowed to breed afew mares to him, and I wanted to breed one of my (maiden) Teke mares. So we tried hand-breeding and the mare just totally freaked out and literally tore away, dragging me afew yards before I let go. That ticked me off so much I just pulled off her halter & lead rope and turned her loose w/ the stallion in a 3-5 acre field for a week.
I was home alot then, and NEVER, EVER saw them within 20 ft of each other. Each day the mare would be in one corner looking like a frightened virgin and the stallion would be in the other corner, huffing & puffing like he was going to have a heart attack.
But she DID turn up pregnant and had a lovely filly. I eventually sold her to a gal who does ONLY pasture breeding and she’s had a foal every year, so I guess she finally got to like it…;).
And that’s what happens in “Nature”; if the mare is in season, even if she isn’t willing, the stallion will basically run her down, biting and intimidating her till she finally submits. i watched my guy do this a number of time w/unsure maidens. Some stallions will “woo” but others just insist.
During my only other experience w/pasture breeding I often saw 2 mares come into heat at the same time, and the dominant mare would actually chase the lower ranking mare away from the stallion whenever the two were close…like she was saying “Me! Me!” So the dominant mare got “overbred” and the lower ranking mare didn’t get bred at all.
Again, I have heard of cases where it worked just fine, and out here many of the big QH ranches do it this way…but their “herds” are out on hundreds & hundreds of acres. They don’t check for twins, but I suspect any mare who routinely aborts or doesn’t conceive is simply culled from the band. Period.
Many outfits don’t attend the foalings either…the babies are born out on the range just like mustangs…[/QUOTE]
To address your first comment about the choice of method - I initially started out with your traditional every other day method. I got some in foal, didn’t get some in foal. The difficult to catch mares were the ones we seemed to be missing. I spoke at length with my vet (from Rood and Riddle experienced repro vet) and asked him if there would be any detriment to breeding in this manner. He stated there likely wouldn’t be providing the mare would stand. The next cycle, all of the mares caught. Maybe we were just lucky, maybe it was the method. I do know all had clean cultures without question. Same stallion, same scale when teased, everything. No other variable but the amount of times covered. Ever since then I have used the same method and all my girls have gotten in foal first or second round. I got alot of flack from people in the area until they enjoyed the fact they didn’t have to keep returning their mares. Since then, there are a few that have converted to that method. If it works, don’t knock it. I haven’t seen an increase in inflammation post breeding either as one may suspect. I’ve not personally been pregnant, but my vet relayed it to me as if you are trying to get pregnant women don’t do it every other day - they do it early and often. Same theory with horses. And when out in the wild or pastured they get bred in the same manner. But as we have agreed to each his own, but I won’t argue with results. Of course, my stallion doesn’t have a huge book (we keep it between 10-15 mares a year, no more). I would be curious with a larger book, but don’t wish to increase it at this time.
As to the second question of on five acres how did I know when one was being bred - for whatever reason the stallion chose to do his breeding by the run in shed before dinner. I know she was covered at least four times, as I witnessed it. Five acres though gave them more than enough room to get away from each other if there posed a problem. The pasture could also be split and I could close them off from each other if things got out of hand through a gate.
I also don’t foal in a stall typically. I have a small paddock attached to the backside of the barn that works perfectly. A clean ground works just as well, if not better. I have a run in shed if she wants to go in there to foal, but with the exception of one mare who decided to foal in a pouring rainstorm that I brought in, everybody has foaled outside. No issues. Easier to get them up, less chance of getting cast. The mare that foaled inside got cast twice and there were complications (major dystocia likely caused by having to flip her twice to get her away from the wall). More room out there to work with if things go wrong. However, I do foal watch, but let mom do the work unless she really needs me and things are going wrong.
I may not be conventional, but I’ve put several healthy babies on the ground and my vet doesn’t argue with results. Best of luck to everyone whatever your chosen method. May all your girls get pregnant and lots of wonderful foals to enjoy.
Years ago, my repro vet took me on a ride along. Mainly to visit his largest breeding operation - a huge (and very well known) Standardbred breeder. They had horses and semen shipping in and out from all over the world. And mares coming in for breeding from all over the US. And they told me that when they ran into a difficult mare who would not take, they would offer up the option of pasture breeding to the owner. They had a couple of older stallions with great bloodlines who were experienced with pasture breeding. And they said every single “difficult breeder” took in a pasture breeding situation. The vet confirmed it - he couldn’t explain it, but he said it worked (he called unexplained phenom FMs, for F#&^%g Miracles).
Not every stallion is suited for pasture breeding, and I’m sure not ever mare is either. But for some horses, it may be the way to go.
YOu would still check the mares at about 13 to 15 days - as long as you know when they were breeding, you can check for twins. You don’t just throw a herd of mares out w/ a stallion and then wait for the following spring:eek: (although some breeders may advocate for that, I can tell you this place was checking EVERYONE regularly, and the mares were foaling out inside with attendants).
Anyone who thinks pasture breeding is so dangerous and phantom breeding is so safe - sorry, BREEDING BIG ANIMALS is NOT safe. I know of plenty of phantom accidents - stallions falling off, I know of one stallion who went off the side of the phantom and ended up slicing himself wide open on the side fence - freak, but awful. One of my boys fell off the side of a phantom - I was horrified, luckily he was OK, just got the wind knocked out of him. And handlers getting hurt. I’m not saying one way or the other is safer, there is risk no matter what. If you want safety, breed earthworms:lol:
Well said Mystic - about the only thing is you are dealing with a “dummy” literally as opposed to two brains. One of which may want absolutely nothing to do with the situation. A dummy can’t say no and isn’t going to argue. I think that is where the idea that AI and collection are safer comes from. There are inherent risks breeding period. You don’t want that concern, stick to having mares and just doing AI. Otherwise there is reason to be concerned, but as long as you make the most prudent safety precautions, it isn’t that bad.
One thing I do advocate though - if breeding in hand all people involved wear helmets !
