An Open Letter by Georgina Bloomberg

[ladyj79]

http://www.noellefloyd.com/an-open-l…ina-bloomberg/

I agree to a certain extent re the blood rule, but not that it is unfairly applied or enforced which Georgina says but then doesn’t provide an instance where it hasn’t been applied.

This past year it has led to the elimination of Bertram Allen, Scott Brash, Stephan Barcha in the Olympics, probably others I am not thinking of, but those are the big three.

And yes, I can see how rubbing a white towel over the spot could actually cause it to bleed. That sucks.

So these guys, whom no one thinks are rough or abusive riders were disqualified for a small spur rub that produced a spot of blood on a white towel.

It sucks.

“This is not a call to soften the rules on horse welfare, but simply to adjust the rules to be reasonable, fair and consistent.”

But if the blood rule is “unfair”, how do we determine what constitutes…what are we calling it? I don’t think anyone is actually calling it abuse. Excessive use of spurs?

Of course, others have been disqualified for excessive use of spurs that didn’t produce blood. Or excessive use of whip for more than three whacks in one effort.

Do we remove that from the discretion of the ground jury and stewards as well? Is ten whacks enough? Is a quarter sized blood spot enough leeway?

If the stewards, as Georgina is outright stating, aren’t fair and impartial now (not sure I agree, but that’s neither here nor there), how will they be when they aren’t restrained by having to have actual concrete physical evidence like blood on a towel? Or again, will there need to be more “evidence”?

As to commentary on other rider’s apparel…I’m not touching that one. I can only say that on days where dress is required, I’ve never seen anyone not dress, and I have seen stewards stop people at the gate if they weren’t dressed appropriately.

I do think complaining about people’s clothing really weakened the argument she was making regarding horse welfare and safety.

I found equating the two quite silly and petty and strange.

As for people riding around the schooling ring talking on the phone, yep, they all do it. I literally have no clue if there’s a rule against that, but Georgina really doesn’t like it.

My favorite though was the first time I was in a ring with John Whitaker, and he was on the phone the whole time he was flatting. And he wasn’t just walking around. I thought it was hilarious and remarkable.

I don’t know that them riding around on their phones is anymore annoying than when a herd of them rides around abreast chatting. I think that’s more annoying to work around.

But back to the spur rub: I’ll admit, I’m a little embarrassed.

Bertram was publicly apologetic about his spur rub (and God bless him, no one thinks Bertram is an abusive rider).

Jur Vrieling cried and was embarrassed by his disqualification, his remarks:

[I]“I did not disagree [with the disqualification],” Vrieling said. “After he stopped, I hit him in reaction. I regret it. It’s easy to say that, but I really do. I did wrong [when I hit him], and I will never do it in my life again. That I can promise.”…

But disaster struck again as Zirocco Blue stopped twice again. “Today I did not take a whip. I just didn’t want to. It’s not going to fix it if he stops. He’s my best friend, and I want to keep him like that,” Vrieling said.

“If we’d done something different in the training, then I could live with it—I could say in my head, ‘Oh stupid, you shouldn’t have done this or that.’ But this has come totally out of nothing. For sure the horse has a reason, but I didn’t know why,” Vrieling said. “This horse has done so many good things for me. I respect my horse a lot, and I will try to get his confidence back.”[/I]

And while we all grumbled about Stephan, there was a tiny speck of blood on the towel, and no one went and complained.

But now Scott Brash, American, and our public response is it’s not that bad! the rules are too harsh!! The stewards aren’t doing their jobs!! And also I hate what people are wearing!!

I don’t know that this was the best response, and I don’t know what the solution is, but I don’t know that this helped.

[vineyridge]

Spurs do exist that reduce the potential for blood to almost zero. Why not use those spurs, and then the blood rule wouldn’t be a problem. If you use spurs with rowels or pointed ends and cut your horse even a tiny bit, you SHOULD be eliminated IMO.

[ladyj79]

@vineyridge

Spurs do exist that reduce the potential for blood to almost zero. Why not use those spurs, and then the blood rule wouldn’t be a problem. If you use spurs with rowels or pointed ends and cut your horse even a tiny bit, you SHOULD be eliminated IMO.

But what if you use roller ball spurs and still cause a spur mark that produces a spot blood on a white towel?

Is it ok because you used the “right” spurs?

Once you start opening the box, it’s hard to know where it stops.

And people are also being eliminated for excessive use of spurs on course by the ground jury. Do we take that subjective power away?

I ask because I do think it sucks that these guys have been eliminated, but I don’t know how much we expand the criteria for elimination without looking even worse in a world that’s already pretty hostile to the sport.

It’s one thing for someone like Bloomberg who doesn’t need to rely on sponsors to make these comments, but much, much harder for someone who relies on owners and sponsors who expect a very appealing and positive public persona to come out and say “It’s only a little blood!”

[ynl063w]

@ladyj79

http://www.noellefloyd.com/an-open-l…ina-bloomberg/

I agree to a certain extent re the blood rule, but not that it is unfairly applied or enforced which Georgina says but then doesn’t provide an instance where it hasn’t been applied.

From the article to which you linked:

“On Saturday, July 8, 2017, after winning the Cascais leg of the Global Champions League, our team, the Miami Glory, was quickly disqualified after Scott Brash’s horse, Hello Forever, came out of the arena and a steward noticed an extremely small spur mark on its side. As others watched, the steward rubbed the mark hard enough to make it bleed slightly, at which point, the steward took the glove to the foreign judge, who deferred to the president of the ground jury. After spreading a trace amount of blood across the horse’s side, the steward photographed the cut, choosing to portray it in a manner that was not representative of how it looked when the horse originally exited the ring. We, along with other riders, have photographs of the horse’s side that represent how the cut looked before being harshly rubbed. The FEI is representing the situation with the photograph taken after the cut was made to bleed by the steward.”

“The cut in question was inspected by every rider, trainer, groom and even a handful of stewards in the schooling area when they heard the issue was under investigation, and most had difficulty finding the cut. Everyone agreed that the mark was not substantial enough to be considered punishable.”

@ladyj79

If the stewards, as Georgina is outright stating, aren’t fair and impartial now (not sure I agree, but that’s neither here nor there), how will they be when they aren’t restrained by having to have actual concrete physical evidence like blood on a towel? Or again, will there need to be more “evidence”?

If the stewards are the ones who are creating the blood after rubbing a white towel on the horse’s side, that is a potential problem that needs to be made public. Good for her for voicing her opinion and bringing this to the forefront. Should everyone just shut up and be puppets and assume that those who are hired to enforce the rules know everything and are always right? She states there is photographic evidence, so let’s wait and see if that is true.

@ladyj79

As to commentary on other rider’s apparel…I’m not touching that one. I can only say that on days where dress is required, I’ve never seen anyone not dress, and I have seen stewards stop people at the gate if they weren’t dressed appropriately.

I do think complaining about people’s clothing really weakened the argument she was making regarding horse welfare and safety.

I found equating the two quite silly and petty and strange.

I have no idea who between you and Georgina Bloomberg clock more hours per year at FEI events so that one of you would see attire infractions more than the other, but I think her point is that she sees regular instances of breaking of rules and safety issues for which nothing is done, and this particular event that is the subject of the article was something that, in her opinion, the steward had to go out of his way to find (create?).

If Georgina’s account of this event is accurate, good for her for publicizing it. I hope the other people who were present at the time, and who she mentions in her opinion piece, speak out to confirm her account.

[AffirmedHope]

It sucks and I understand thier frustration but you can’t really have any room for discretion with this kind of rule. One steward might eliminate for the tinest nick but then you’ll have a steward that will allow a competitor to continue with large open sores on the horse. It has to be all or nothing.

Nobody accused Scott of being a bad horseman, sometimes sh!t just happens. Stefan Peters was eliminated at the World Cup a couple years ago when his horse spooked into his spur and caused an open sore. No one accused him of abuse.

I didn’t care for the tone of the open letter myself, but at least she didn’t go and try to blame the fearful and talentless for the rule :lol:

[vineyridge]

Rubbing a towel on the side of a horse would not cause blood unless there was a cut already. Even roughly rubbing the side of a horse would not cause bleeding unless there was a cut already. So spur cuts that have stopped bleeding are okay, even if the bleeding will start when when rubbed “harshly” with a WHITE towel?

Why would a steward attempt to create blood?

Is the problem a trace of blood or is the problem the cut?

I don’t buy any of it.

[ladyj79]

@vineyridge

Rubbing a towel on the side of a horse would not cause blood unless there was a cut already. Even roughly rubbing the side of a horse would not cause bleeding unless there was a cut already. So spur cuts that have stopped bleeding are okay, even if the bleeding will start when when rubbed “harshly” with a WHITE towel?

Why would a steward attempt to create blood?

Is the problem a trace of blood or is the problem the cut?

I don’t buy any of it.

The blood rule technically is the blood and not the mark/rub/cut rule although that theoretically could get you disqualified on course if the ground jury decides it’s excessive use of spurs.

I have a pic somewhere of Stephan’s horse from Rio and the mark is tiny and almost unnoticeable and I don’t know if the speck of blood was from a vigorously rubbed towel that wore away an already thinned layer of skin or just a gentle dab. I think the application of towel could be as imprecise and subjective as flexion tests :lol:

so do we give up applying a towel? Do we set horses with spur rubs off to the side for stewards to observe the mark for ten minutes to see if a blood drop appears?
Should a mark not be examined if there’s no obvious blood pooling?

Does Scott wish he had used a belly band?

I’m really surprised we aren’t seeing more of those.

[ynl063w]

@vineyridge

Rubbing a towel on the side of a horse would not cause blood unless there was a cut already. Even roughly rubbing the side of a horse would not cause bleeding unless there was a cut already. So spur cuts that have stopped bleeding are okay, even if the bleeding will start when when rubbed “harshly” with a WHITE towel?

Why would a steward attempt to create blood?

Is the problem a trace of blood or is the problem the cut?

I don’t buy any of it.

I don’t know enough about any of this to answer your questions - I’m just going by Georgina’s account that everyone nearby after the incident was made public and before the steward showed up with the towel did not see any evidence of blood or a cut. I also don’t know the wording of the rule - is the steward allowed to rub the horse’s side in an attempt to draw blood, even if none is visually apparent at the time of the complaint? And if there is no evidence of blood upon initial visual inspection, but the steward is able to draw blood by rubbing a white towel over the affected area, does that result in an infraction? How hard is the steward allowed to rub the towel on the horse’s side? How is that measured to ensure consistency? It’s a slippery slope, and I don’t think the answer is to just completely dismiss Georgina’s personal account with the assumption that she’s a poor loser. She just doesn’t come off that way to me.

[egood]

This letter is ridiculous.

Steffen handled this correctly, took his elimination, apologized and moved on.

She says we have to change the rule to better protect the welfare of the animal? What? She also doesn’t go on to explain how the rule could be altered or enforced better.

She doesn’t care about the welfare protection associated with the rule, what she doesn’t like about it is that if the rule is enforced you’re implied to be an abuser of animals.

I’d think it strange that a spur rub/cut develops out of no where with no previous rub or mark, but it probably happens. If you’re worried about it, then change your spurs or don’t wear them. If something happens and there’s blood, take your elimination and move on. I’ve seen a horse bite his tongue in a dressage test - it happens.

The only thing I agree with is that we need more rules and more judges and stewards willing to call out animal abuse.

[ladyj79]

@ynl063w you misunderstood a bit of what I said regarding “unfair” application of the blood rule ie that Scott is being punished when others are not. There were no examples given of where riders were not penalized for blood. The blood rule is confusing to me as well as I’ve sent horses into the ring with a big ol pouring blood leg --and that horse went through a pre-class boot check with a bloody white leg–and I’ve taken horses out with a bloody white leg from an overtightened boot that rubbed her raw because one day after a year and a half my rider decided I didn’t know how to put on boots and put on his own.

neither horse was eliminated, whereas I thought the pouring blood leg at the boot check surely would have kept us from jumping the class. But nope. Of course that was my Olympian.

that’s what I mean by evidence of unfair application of the blood rule because it seems entirely focused on spur rubs (and to a lesser extent on bloody mouths) but not much else. It strikes me as ridiculous to penalize someone for a small spur rub while allowing another rider to jump a horse with a profusely bleeding leg. That’s not a great horse welfare move.

that’s where I think it’s unfairly applied and open to attack.

[Curly_Feather]

I don’t think the blood rule should ever be in any way subjective. If there is blood, even a stipple, you should be eliminated.

The instances where blood happens completely by accident (scratched leg, a horse biting its cheek) are negligible, and in those cases the competitor will just have to shrug it off as terrible luck and accept the elimination.

Our horses are non-consenting participants. If anything, we need to err on the side of being overly cautious, even if that means a few more eliminations a year.

If there is the tiniest cut, even if there is no blood, at the site of a spur rub, that rider should be eliminated. A spur rub that gets through to the skin means that (1) you had a very unfortunate once-off accident, (2) you should be wearing no/different spurs, (3) training is not sufficient for the level or (4) your horse has extremely sensitive skin. A lot of these things can be resolved by wearing a belly band.

If the same type of rub/mark/cut was caused by a horse’s girth, or a pressure point of a blanket or saddle, or from the bridle, I hope we would all do something to resolve our horse’s obvious discomfort??? Spur rubs should not be ignored because it might be more inconvenient to solve…

[nutmeg]

The round in question:

https://www.globalchampionsleague.com/events/2017/cascais-estoril/results/24/global-champions-league-of-cascais-2017/

(Preview version doesn’t indicate if that link works. If not, fish around on the Global Champions League website under Cascais, then results, then hit the arrow by Scott’s DNQ at the bottom)

[SnicklefritzG]

Is this rule really about the animal? Or trying to appease animal rights activists?

[wronglead]

Thanks for the video link, nutmeg.

After watching Scott’s round, bloody spur marks definitely seems like an unfortunate incident similar to the examples Curly Feather mentioned. It seemed like a lovely round and probably an accidental catch of the spur over a fence.

Agree with LadyJ-- why are we not seeing more belly bands? This is probably an instance that could have been avoided if the horse was wearing one. Or like other posters said-- don’t wear spurs you know might cause blood if your leg catches the horse over a fence.

Lastly, a little off topic, but did anyone watch Georgina’s round? It was lovely as well but that horse’s hind end looks so wonky to me.

[GoneAway]

@SnicklefritzG

Is this rule really about the animal? Or trying to appease animal rights activists?

It could probably be argued that this is the FEI just bending over and taking the animal rights agenda up the you know what, like Prudent mentioned in her podcast. However, I think the stronger argument is that we exist in a world where the general public is ignorant about horse sports, ignorant about animal husbandry, ignorant of standards of abuse, and is therefore intolerant of any perceived wrong doing. And blood, no matter how much, is an obvious line that the general public would not have crossed. It’s too easy to scream “ABUSE!” when there is that bright, red liquid on the hide of an animal that didn’t ask to jump around or be spurred.

I’m not saying that attitude is right, I think it’s up to good horsemen to educate the ignorant folks around them, but unfortunately it is the environment we now exist in. It is this environment that ultimately make the animal rights agenda so dangerous, because ignorant people will believe just about anything.

[vineyridge]

IMO, the enforcement of the blood rule is a nod to the animal rights people, although the rule has been in the FEI rulebook for as long as I can remember. The FEI has only currently started putting emphasis on it. They have had a rule/policy against excessive tightness of nosebands for years, but the direction that the stewards check for tightness AFTER the class only came through last summer.

If the PTBs are finally getting serious about animal abuse because of the animal rights people, I personally think that is a good thing. I may be wrong, but haven’t they extended the ban against Doda boots this year to horses over seven (eight?). I’m pretty sure that they are no longer allowed in eventing at all, and the wording banning them is pretty harsh.

[AppleBird]

Information for those who care:
STEWARDS’ PROTOCOL FOR HANDLING CASES OF BLOOD ON A HORSE’S FLANK(S) AND/OR MARKS INDICATING EXCESSIVE USE OF THE SPUR(S)
A member of the Ground Jury must be available throughout the event to examine, at the request of the Chief Steward, a horse if it is found to have blood on the flank(s) and/or marks indicating excessive use of the spur(s).

If a Steward notices blood on a horse’s flank at any time in connection with the warm-up for a competition or at any time in connection with a horse leaving the competition arena, including but not only during post-competition boot and bandage control, the following procedures must be followed.

1. The Steward must inform the Athlete that there is an issue with blood on the horse’s flank(s), and that he will:
   a) Take photographs of the horse and the affected area(s) and of the spurs
   b) Inform the Chief Steward (unless he is the CS)

2. After informing the Athlete as above, the Steward must:
   a) Take a close-up photograph of the injury and the blood.
   b) Summon the Chief Steward and inform him.
   c) Take a photograph of the general area where the injury/blood is located.
   d) Take a photograph of the horse, including its competition number that, if possible, also shows the area of the injury/blood.
   e) Take a photograph of the spurs that the Athlete was using.
   f) Remain with the horse until the Chief Steward arrives, making sure that nobody touches the area in question and that the blood is not wiped off.
   NB: If the horse is in a very public area, the Steward should require that the horse be moved to a more private area before proceeding with the above steps. The Athlete may, if he wishes, place a horse rug or cooler over the horse while the horse is being moved.

3. On his arrival, the Chief Steward will:
   a) Examine the area in question making sure that he is wearing an unused latex glove.
   b) Establish whether points a) c), d) and e) above have been followed, and if not, take the appropriate photos as required above.
   c) Lay the back of his gloved hand over the area in order to transfer blood from the flank(s) onto the glove taking care not to smear or spread the blood over a wider area.
   d) Photograph the blood on the glove.
   e) Advise the Athlete that according to FEI Rules, he must inform the Ground Jury of the situation and tell the Athlete that the horse must remain available and under the supervision of a Steward until further notice.
   f) The Chief Steward will then report the incident to the Ground Jury member designated to handle such cases and show him the photographs.

If blood is not visible on the horse’s flank but the horse has a mark or marks which could indicate excessive use of the spur(s), the Steward must summon the Chief Steward, who will follow the procedure outlined in paragraph 3 above.

The Ground Jury may not take a decision on disqualification until the designated member of the Ground Jury has seen the photographs and examined the horse. It is not the role of the Chief Steward or any member of the stewarding team to inform the PR that he has been disqualified. This is the responsibility of the Ground Jury.

If blood is noticed on a horse’s flank prior to the horse entering the competition arena, the Steward shall inform the Athlete that the horse will not be allowed to enter the competition arena until the procedure outlined above has been carried out and permission has been granted by the Ground Jury for the horse to take part in the competition. Failure of the Athlete to comply with the Steward’s instruction will result in the issuance of a yellow warning card by the Chief Steward.
The Chief Steward must always brief his team on the above procedures before the start of the event.

[kirbydog]

I am commenting on the use of electronic devises while mounted : I don’t care if it’s John Whittaker or John Doe. It’s annoying and dangerous, and if you’ve ever had a distracted rider cut you or your student off because their phone call is much more important then anything else, then you know where I’m coming from. There’s a reason it’s illegal to text or use a hand held devise when driving a car; it’s freakin’ dangerous. It is equally dangerous when mounted on a 1100lbs of fight or flight in a crowded ring.

[ladyj79]

@kirbydog

I am commenting on the use of electronic devises while mounted : I don’t care if it’s John Whittaker or John Doe. It’s annoying and dangerous, and if you’ve ever had a distracted rider cut you or your student off because their phone call is much more important then anything else, then you know where I’m coming from. There’s a reason it’s illegal to text or use a hand held devise when driving a car; it’s freakin’ dangerous. It is equally dangerous when mounted on a 1100lbs of fight or flight in a crowded ring.

I don’t disagree with you.

it’s also actually a bit embarrassing for me when my rider is the one on the phone.

But I dont think there’s currently a rule–which takes it out of the Steward’s role–or at least complicates it–so let’s instead make it a rule and then the stewards have something to point to. Otherwise I think it’s up to the riders to better police each other rather than blaming the stewards that your friends are jerks.

[RAyers]

Have run at the FEI levels, I understand that the FEI rules are significantly different from our national rules. For example, in Germany it is illegal to trim a horse’s muzzle, eye lashes, and hair from ears. And the FEI allows penalties for that as well at FEI competitions. I had to do the complete drug free, separate feed and water buckets for my horses (even at home), full on passport documentation of every vaccine every time,… blah, blah, blah, route. It is the nature of the game.

Georgina signed up to play in the international pool. She needs to suck it up, stop whining and play by international rules.

Her letter comes off as whiny and entitled to me.

Do politics come into play at those levels? Hell yes! And appropriate sucking up to officials is required. Nature of the game.