Anabolic Steroids

[Profidia]

The Jockey Club several years ago called for an immediate ban on the use of anabolic steroids in race horses.

IMO this was a good common sense thing to do.
http://www.jockeyclub.com/resources/3_steroids.pdf

Question is why has West Virginia (Mountaineer) rescinded this rule which to my knowledge every other track in the country has adopted?

Are they trying to give Penn National a run for their money for being a national embarrassment? How about it West Virginia? What’s the matter with that place?

[tbracer65]

Interesting as a good trainer friend of mine got days for a bad steroid test on a horse he had just claimed the start prior just a few months ago at MNR… maybe whoever you know slipped through? Hormones, like everything else, has it’s place…it’s the abuse of them that needs to stop. I know plenty of trainers that still use them at Presque Isle, Turfway, River, etc… – just stop in enough time to race (different at various tracks)…

Not sure what pot you’re trying to get stirred…in my eyes it’s little things like this that bring a bad rep to the industry (posting something about the racing industry…no matter what track it is) when all the facts aren’t straight or researched…

[Profidia]

[QUOTE=tbracer65;5012003]
Interesting as a good trainer friend of mine got days for a bad steroid test on a horse he had just claimed the start prior just a few months ago at MNR… maybe whoever you know slipped through? Hormones, like everything else, has it’s place…it’s the abuse of them that needs to stop. I know plenty of trainers that still use them at Presque Isle, Turfway, River, etc… – just stop in enough time to race (different at various tracks)…[/QUOTE] Wrong. Drug use has no place in racing or any other sport. With competent oversight those trainers would be gone as they rightfully should be.

Not sure what pot you’re trying to get stirred…in my eyes it’s little things like this that bring a bad rep to the industry (posting something about the racing industry…no matter what track it is) when all the facts aren’t straight or researched…

The facts are that in 2006 the Jockey Club through their Health and Safety of the Racehorse Summit made recommendations banning anabolic steroids and front toe grabs higher than 4mm (later revised to 2mm now revised to 4mm again) to the RCI. These rules were then adopted by every racing jurisdiction in the country.

Question is why has Mountaineer decided to thumb it’s nose at the rest of the country? This lack of integrity is what’s killing the sport, not those trying to expose it.

[On_the_Farm]

@Profidia;5026898

Wrong. Drug use has no place in racing or any other sport. With competent oversight those trainers would be gone as they rightfully should be.

Are you advocating that horses in competitive disciplines be banned from receiving even routine veterinary care?

[Profidia]

[QUOTE=On the Farm;5027206]
Are you advocating that horses in competitive disciplines be banned from receiving even routine veterinary care?[/QUOTE]
Now where did I say that?

Perhaps maybe first lets define “routine” vet care.

[danceronice]

You said “drug use.” Not ‘steroid use’ but that drugs have no place in any sports. Are you also in favor of eliminating lasix/salix and bute? (I’m not saying I think one way or another, just asking.)

[Third_Glance]

Is this an announced policy change, or just something “understood” on the backside?

[Profidia]

[QUOTE=danceronice;5027516]
You said “drug use.” Not ‘steroid use’ but that drugs have no place in any sports. Are you also in favor of eliminating lasix/salix and bute? (I’m not saying I think one way or another, just asking.)[/QUOTE]
Anabolic steroids are a completely different thing than corticosteroids which can in some cases be beneficial if used properly.

Anabolics have no good purpose other than performance enhancement.

May be a matter of semantics to some ie drugs-bad medication-good but minus the pc terminology drugs are drugs and have no place in the sport. Horses should be running on water oats and hay. Lasix and Bute? US and Canada only countries in the world allowing it. Should be banned as well.

[On_the_Farm]

[QUOTE=Profidia;5027881]
Anabolic steroids are a completely different thing than corticosteroids which can in some cases be beneficial if used properly.

Anabolics have no good purpose other than performance enhancement.

May be a matter of semantics to some ie drugs-bad medication-good but minus the pc terminology drugs are drugs and have no place in the sport. Horses should be running on water oats and hay. Lasix and Bute? US and Canada only countries in the world allowing it. Should be banned as well.[/QUOTE]

As I’ve asked others, how can you require horses to compete at the most strenuous task possible, but still prevent them from receiving proper veterinary care by banning medications? That’s inhumane. If a horse is stiff the morning after a work/race, why shouldn’t it be allowed to receive bute or some other anti-inflammatory? Old Dobbin is allowed to if he gives an extra lesson, why not a racehorse?

Anabolic steroids aren’t strictly performance enhancing as you falsely claim. Why shouldn’t a poor keeper, under veterinary care, be allowed to receive Winstrol to improve its appetite? Or would you rather go back to those “hay, oats, and water” days (which really weren’t) and give the animal a variety of tonics, some which may include such wonderful chemicals as arsenic? Phar Lap may have lived a much longer life if steroids were available in his era.

And please, don’t think because other jurisdictions don’t allow lasix that their horses don’t bleed. Do a little research and you’ll learn that horses were suffering from EIPH long before lasix ever hit the scene. I guess we could go back to withholding water for hours upon hours and piling on wool coolers to sweat out excess fluid.

Be careful what you wish for with your “hay, oats, and water.”

[danceronice]

@Profidia;5027881

Anabolic steroids are a completely different thing than corticosteroids which can in some cases be beneficial if used properly.

Uh…no shite, Sherlock, really? Where did I or On The Farm indicate we r stoopid and don’t know that? I’m probably more intimately acquainted with corticosteroids than you or any other poster on here as far as human use is concerned, and I was never under the impression those 200mg IV they were giving me daily for a week were the same things Mark McGwire was using to hit all those home runs.

May be a matter of semantics to some ie drugs-bad medication-good but minus the pc terminology drugs are drugs and have no place in the sport. Horses should be running on water oats and hay. Lasix and Bute? US and Canada only countries in the world allowing it. Should be banned as well.

So, you are against veterinary treatment, at least of a pharmacological nature.

Personally? I’ll give you Lasix. They ran fine without it when it was banned in some states and it’s a question of not breeding the ones who really bleed too much. Bute? NSAIDs aren’t banned in humans for athletic purposes. You don’t fail a drug test because you popped a few Advil. Every human athlete learns to compete with some degree of pain and manages it somehow. The only difference in horses is humans have to make the call when it’s too much. I would assume you also oppose joint injections (and in sport horses as well as racehorses.)

Also, you ducked the issue in tbracer65’s post where a trainer DID get set down for steroids at Mountaineer. Which argues that they do NOT in fact permit steroids, despite your apparently having an axe to grind with them.

And there HAS been another health and safety summit since then, so why are you attacking Mountaineer NOW based on a recommendation made four years ago?

Just repeating your talking points, answering questions with non sequiturs, and ignoring ones that don’t fit your argument aren’t good debate strategies. Just sayin’.

[Ghazzu]

@Profidia;5027881

Anabolics have no good purpose other than performance enhancement.

I wouldn’t say that, though I would agree that an animal in which anabolic steroids are medically indicated is in no condition to be racing.

[system]

wow, the vets are chimming in on steroids! figured that would happen sooner or later as the “steroid ban” has cost them at least 25% of their incomes, regardless of the damage to the horse and the sport. Eliminate corticosteroid injections immediately prior to race day, and these ladies and gentlemen will be looking for another practice. It’s all good! Please find another vocation.

[hoopoe]

I will echo what Ghazzu says in response to profidias atatement.

What she says is very true Anabolic steroids have a very legitimate place in human and veterinary medicine. False information here and elsewhere can potentially frighten a person away from a solid therapeutic choice

Legitimate drug but not for the training and maintenance of a juiced athlete.

[Ghazzu]

@Wallace;5028529

wow, the vets are chimming in on steroids! figured that would happen sooner or later as the “steroid ban” has cost them at least 25% of their incomes, regardless of the damage to the horse and the sport. Eliminate corticosteroid injections immediately prior to race day, and these ladies and gentlemen will be looking for another practice. It’s all good! Please find another vocation.

You have a problem with commentary on pharmaceutical use by people with training in that area?
Interesting.
BTW, bans on drug use have cost me nada.

[Profidia]

[QUOTE=danceronice;5028509]

So, you are against veterinary treatment, at least of a pharmacological nature. [/QUOTE] For horses in active competition yes.

Also, you ducked the issue in tbracer65’s post where a trainer DID get set down for steroids at Mountaineer. Which argues that they do NOT in fact permit steroids, despite your apparently having an axe to grind with them.
I ducked nothing. The incident mentioned was months ago. This change in their policy is to my understanding a very recent development.

And there HAS been another health and safety summit since then, so why are you attacking Mountaineer NOW based on a recommendation made four years ago?
Have been about two more actually. See above. They had been following recommendations as all other tracks had. This change is recent.

[On_the_Farm]

@Profidia;5028675

For horses in active competition yes.

Since you’re wanting to eliminate legitimate and legal treatment by veterinarian, can you at least refer a good witch doctor?

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=Wallace;5028529]
wow, the vets are chimming in on steroids! figured that would happen sooner or later as the “steroid ban” has cost them at least 25% of their incomes, regardless of the damage to the horse and the sport. Eliminate corticosteroid injections immediately prior to race day, and these ladies and gentlemen will be looking for another practice. It’s all good! Please find another vocation.[/QUOTE]

Why would you inject CORTICOsteroids? Genuine question. In humans, at least, they are the polar opposite of performance enhancer, except perhaps in that it’s hard to compete at anything when your own immune system is trying to kill you (as corticosteroids are immunosuppressants given for anything from allergies to MS to RA to my own fun little disorder, where my immune system destroys my platelets.) The side effects make you feel like crap, and you definitely don’t gain any muscle mass from them.

And could you (if you are in fact the OP’s sockpuppet) or the OP link to Mountaineer’s new policy so the rest of the class can see if it’s changed? “To my understanding” isn’t a citation.

OP: Totally ignoring a post is ducking. See above–where is Mountaineer’s new policy? Or would you care to address Ghazzu’s point that there’s a place for everything, or On The Farm’s that apparently you’re against any veterinary treatment developed in the last seventy years or so, since sulfa and penicillin are also drugs so they must be contraindicated in performance animals.

[caffeinated]

@danceronice;5029342

Why would you inject CORTICOsteroids?

We’re talking joint injections, I think, which is really a major problem.

Used properly, with rest and associated care, there’s nothing wrong with a joint injection. What you see too much of in racing, however, is horses with out and out chips in their joint, and severe arthritis (“bone on bone”) being given joint injections, then raced on those compromised joints. When the horse can’t feel the pain, he goes out and runs a lot harder and faster than he would otherwise (further trashing the joint in the process).

Think “well, we found the horse had four chips in his knee, so we injected him and raced him again twice.”

I think medication rules need to get a lot more strict. For sure there is a time and place to use medications and drugs for the health and welfare of the horse, but there’s a ton of abuse out there. Bute is all well and good, but I’ve seen horses that were lame enough with enough problems to be put down walk remarkably well when given bute for a few days of comfort. It’s a more powerful drug than it’s often given credit for, and can certainly get a “sore” horse (which I’ve learned can mean everything from muscle sore to having fractures) through the pre-race lookover by the vet.

Lasix is over-used as well, IMO. There was some evidence presented at the congressional hearing a few years back that its use to stop bleeding may actually be limited, but that there is evidence that it can act as a performance enhancer in horses who don’t bleed.

Anabolic steroids get more “recognition” by people as a performance enhancer, so it’s easy to get folks worked up about it. Joint injections and other drugs that are “therapeutic” - well it’s harder to get peoples’ attention even though the abuse of these is far more serious from a horse welfare standpoint.

Just my opinion, of course.

[DMK]

Agreed w/caffeinated. Anabolic steroids were the easiest target out there and I think the speed in which they were banned represented exactly how useful the industry thought they were (not very). The discussion about pre-race corticosteroid joint injections is going to take a lot longer and I suspect may come down to “you can have my pre-race joint taps when you pry them from my cold, dead horse’s knee” kind of struggle.

[Profidia]

[QUOTE=Wallace;5028529]
wow, the vets are chimming in on steroids! figured that would happen sooner or later as the “steroid ban” has cost them at least 25% of their incomes, regardless of the damage to the horse and the sport. Eliminate corticosteroid injections immediately prior to race day, and these ladies and gentlemen will be looking for another practice. It’s all good! Please find another vocation.[/QUOTE]Actually Pennsylvania did just that a couple of years ago. Although I’m not sure of how they can police it-especially regarding ship ins but they did pass a rule nonetheless.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;5028586]You have a problem with commentary on pharmaceutical use by people with training in that area?
Interesting.
BTW, bans on drug use have cost me nada.[/QUOTE]
I’ll agree with the good Dr on this one. I’ve never seen any vet object to takiing a horse off of Lasix. IME they’re only more than happy to sign the paper. This certainly convinces me anyway that they’ve nothing to gain or lose by the chemical warfare contemporary trainers engage in.