I don’t want to dig up an old thread so I will very cautiously say that the emerging trend of crossing KWPN harness with PRE is very exciting to me. We have several PRE & Lusitano at my barn—including my trainer’s very, very cool PRE stallion and they’re really growing on me! I adore my gelding and though he only just turned 7, when the time comes to shop again, I will seriously be considering a harness x PRE!
Harness x PRE? Oh heck no. Don’t need to add any more knee action to the breed, IMO. Or just in general, I’m so thrilled with the PRE or PSL as is, that I don’t want to cross it with anything. However, I have seen a very functional Azteca recently who excels at trail and western work (ranch type stuff). Why would a harness bred horse be beneficial to cross with the PRE? They both can get too much knee action going and be difficult to get to really come through and over their backs. Sure, it might add sit to the harness horse, but that’s not what a harness horse is meant for, and you could just find a sport bred WB for that. I might not be thinking about this the right way though.
Sometimes the motives behind crossing a PRE and a WB are strange to me. Sometimes, I get it, but I’ll stick with what I’ve got.
These horses can be borderline emotional, I will admit. I enjoy the high amount of sensitivity and it just suits me. The moment I sat on one (I never cared for them from afar), I was like, holy sh*t, this is what I’ve been looking for! A previous fellow boarder liked my PRE and the breed for their lovely personalities and character, as well as their more comfortable gaits, but ultimately she (self admittedly) did not have the amount of feel, tact, or fineness to ride them. She tried mine a few times, and as a permanent mount, it wouldn’t have worked.
The PRE crosses v well with TB and with Arab. Many functional horses in Spain are from such breeding.
Yep. That’s true. I haven’t seen so many TB x PRE in Spain, personally, as in F1. I love a good TB almost as much as a PRE, but I don’t care to blend them together, for myself. I’ll just have one of each
Although, I can kind of see the appeal.
The Hispano-Árabe has been around for quite awhile, and I could see myself liking that cross as a mount from a disposition standpoint. Both breeds are typically very people oriented, intelligent, and full of heart with a tad bit if flair (maybe more than a tad bit for some Arabs LOL).
@CanteringCarrot One of my all time great horses was a “Tres Sangres” Anglo-Hispano-Arabe I had the pleasure of riding for a week of trail riding in Spain. Kind, athletic, intelligent, comfortable all wrapped up in a pretty bright bay coat. That horse had as much fun as I did as we travelled together. I found he had more freedom and swing in his gaits compared to several PRE I’ve ridden that can sometimes can feel like a sewing machine going up and down when in the canter.
Love reading everyone else’s love for the Iberians and crosses.
They’ve been my heart horses since 1992 when I worked at a Luso stud and classical riding centre.
I’ve been incredibly blessed to be owned by a few of them since then - at the last count 4 x PSL, a Luso Arab, a PRE and a PRE x Shire……and as of yesterday I have bought a PRE x RMH filly
Have also cared for / trained another 6 PREs, a PRE x Welsh and two more Lusos here at my yard.
I think it qualifies as an obsession at this point
All different in personality and level of sensitivity, some who could turn a hoof to anything, some who couldn’t do much else but break my heart.
I’m hoping my foal can grow up into the former!!
Getting a Spanish horse to move across its back is a big job. They are leg movers, which is why they are so comfortable. Not all of them are leg movers, but many of them. That, plus their sensitivity means that the rider has to have a balanced seat and know how to generate a connection and create rhythm and forward without rushing. It’s hard. You are not alone. They are F1 racing cars. They need a lot of tact and they are so bendy and maneuverable that any change in balance can throw them off.
I do love their try, and how much they want to work with their rider. You will be a better rider for all the frustration you are going through.
I’m right there with you. My first one had me literally at hello; he wasn’t for sale, and I’d never considered an Andalusian. I had walked into the barn, and was struck by the sheer presence in his eyes. Within six months, he had reeled me in.
I also agree there are many technical challenges, from faking it through the back, to their eye-rolling boredom with the 20m circles (let’s start at the top, please), and their intolerance of injustice. But I believe it was in Reflections in Equestrian Art that Nuno Oliveira lamented that the one thing that cannot be taught is tact; if any horse can teach a rider tact, it’s the right PRE—nothing beautiful comes from force.
Half a lifetime later, I remain enchanted with them. Of course years and more PREs later, I can shake my head and mutter “smooth move, Mr Horse of Kings” when they have a moment.
greys
“smooth move, Mr Horse of Kings”
They really do teach you tact and you really do ride their mind, so to speak. It’s very mental with them. Which is cool because they’re so intelligent, and I’ve also taught all of mine various “tricks” when doing ground work, and people comment that they’re sort of like dogs at times.
I struggled off and on while riding with various clinicians in Germany, and trying out various trainers. I was in a very Warmblood dominated area, and many trainers seemed to train through force, physical strength, and repetition. None of which benefit the PRE, or many other horses, IMHO. Some were just so set in their ways, and inflexible. I did stop one riding lesson and said, “I’m not doing this to my horse” because I knew it’d take me days, if not weeks to undo what was happening of I pressed on. It was hard for me to stand up to a bigger name professional, but sometimes you’ve got to advocate for the horse.
The PRE isn’t for everyone, and that’s fine. We all have different styles, and some of us are more aware of our bodies than others. I like a highly fine tuned ride, but I’ve actually found others to be intimidated by it or nervous about it. One friend rode my horse and the fact that he responded aids so finely made her nervous. I rode her horse and it was like riding a cinderblock. Back like a board, stiff neck, hard mouth, full sides, so mine was quite the contrast! Many of the amateur Warmblood riders at the stable preferred a push ride that was more dull because it felt “safe” to them. To me, it was the opposite. I also hit the dirt far less than they did, FWIW
I was actually a bit apprehensive about my 2 year old because when I got him 6 months or so ago, he gave zero f*cks and I thought he might be challenging. We’ve really connected though and his sensitivity and intelligence has shone through. I’m interested to see how he progresses because his movement is different from my last one. He’s much more “floaty” and has more natural suspension and inclination to extend his gaits. If I did it right, he should have strengths where the other had weaknesses.
I’ve only ever ridden one that was super sewing machine like. Some can get this way if they’re tense, of course, but this one was quite extreme. Perhaps had to do with his breeding but also his training.
Good on you for advocating for your horse. I’ve been there too, and it can be difficult to get people to understand that I’m not just being precious about his majesty’s dainty feelings.
Sometimes you just have to give them a minute to think about how they feel about what you’re asking. Their anticipation (eagerness to please) can be confused with disobedience, when maybe they’re just guessing.
(And then again maybe they’re just having a moment.)
And I agree they definitely aren’t for everyone. But if you know, you know!
Glad to hear your youngster is coming along. Did you find him in Germany?
greys
Oh, interesting! A friend who bred PREs for a while and then decided to breed Lusitanos described the PREs as “easier” and more tolerant of operator error, while the Lusitanos were a bit more headstrong and opinionated. She said that she thought it was because Andalusian-types were used a lot in the distant past as mounts for royalty and to pull their carriages, so they were prized for their tractable nature. Lusitanos OTOH were not traditionally used to pack kings and queens around and were instead bred for war and for bull fighting, where courage is a hugely desirable trait. The Lusitanos had to be willing to face danger - and that kind of bravado makes them want to take over (“take the bull by the horns” so to speak).
Interesting! It may just come down to the individual horses.
This is Exactly what I’ve heard from several Lusitano breeders.
This has been my experience, too. My Lusi is much more sensitive than the PRE I rode for a summer. And when we moved to a new barn with resident deer that ran through the arena, the PREs and warmbloods all spooked and tried to run away, whereas my Lusi wanted to run towards the deer. His instinct was to chase them away.
Consider older KWPN dressage lines to cross with the PRE - I’ve found that the Dutch harness lines have a little too much hind end angulation/longer gaskins which the PRE can have quite a bit of, too. The really nice WB/PRE crosses I’m seeing at not extremes of either breed.
Actually my PRE does the same thing! Maybe he’s a bullfighter! He runs towards anything that the others spook at.
Will file this away in my brain for later, thanks!