He has some of the worst hands I’ve seen in riding. They say a rider’s hands can tell everything about them. That certainly fits here; he has the aggressive, chaotic, yanking hands of a person who would abuse his horses to cheat the competition. Such a disgrace of a human being.
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How many times has Sharbatly been suspended and/or given a yellow card? Seems like quite a few now.
He and Kocher are definitively kindred spirits as far as their disregard for the horses that they use.
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I got what you were saying. And not sure why anyone is going after you, not all friends are friends you feel comfortable calling out on something like that.
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Well, that is true, people (myself included), hate feeling uncomfortable. Except if one feels strongly enough to assert on a huge, public forum that they would never let Kocher near their own horses, it follows that they would also like to see this sort of abuse punished, or at least work to make sure people hiring him are informed about his behavior. If that is the case it is important to move beyond silence; change does not happen by itself.
If a person won’t do that, won’t have that awkward conversation, they shouldn’t paint themselves as some sort of moral authority. They should just not talk about it at all, and then they won’t get the above sorts of reactions.
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@TheMoo @Calling Duck - This is not snark, this is a request to be able to not seem as if I was ignoring/avoiding you. If you would add the “@” symbol when you mention me, then I can see your comments in my alerts and respond in a timely fashion. I just now saw your posts.
There’s a few things being tossed at me in terms of hypocrisy because I’m someone that would like Plantation’s name changed, but I mentioned the events name in my thread about it.
And there’s the supposition that because I didn’t call and ask a friend why she chose to have Andy ride her horse that I must agree with her actions, even though I have clearly stated that I would never allow him near my horses.
I’m also accused of being someone trying to preach moral authority.
Ok so let’s simplify this.
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Andy Kocher is not someone that I would ever involve with my horses or my riding. And that’s my own choice based largely on his (lack) of riding prowess and the gazillion stories behind his behavior that pre-dated the electric spur discovery. He’s just not that good of a rider and clearly his willingness to ignore the best horsemanship ideals is enough for me to pass. But it’s my decision for myself and the things that I control. He had owners, sponsors etc all during the time when he was cited by USEF for leaving the grounds and schooling before Grand Prix’s, they had to know, and he didn’t suddenly stop showing. As such it can be inferred that some folks didn’t object as I did. I am only making choices for myself.
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I won’t claim moral ground for anyone outside of myself. What I believe in and do is just that…mine. You all have come out in defense of and against various people, training methods and other things over the decades that I have posted here. I have not always agreed with everyone and I fully accept and own that people don’t always agree with me. And in this world…WE DO NOT HAVE TO. You can have your own beliefs and it’s fine. Despite what happens on social media now, more often than 20 years ago, you don’t need to make me change my opinion to match yours anymore than I have to push to make you agree with me. I allow that people that I know and people that I don’t will ABSOLUTELY do things that I wouldn’t. MANY will be better riders with more success than me through their methods, decisions and choices. Some will cross lines I wouldn’t cross. It doesn’t mean I condone them when they do. Likewise it doesn’t mean I am required to stand on the nearest soap box with a bullhorn when they do things I would not and hollar at them for doing it. The world keeps turning and we all just do the best we can with what we can actually control or have influence over.
I can have friends that do things that differ from myself, today like voting for a candidate that I didn’t choose to vote for. We can still be friends. We can still laugh and have fun conversations. I think the best friends that I have are the ones that know that we can debate and disagree and still be friends. I don’t think if it’s a true friend that I have to call everyone every time that they make choices I wouldn’t and question them at length on their decisions. That isn’t respectful that they have the facts in front of them and made a choice. The friend who put Andy on her horse is a grown ass woman, older than me, more experienced in that type of showing and would laugh at me for being critical of her anyway. I could say something, but It would change nothing. She knows her horse, I don’t, and she got out of it good rounds/experiences based on what she put on FB. And I can still be her friend because I can allow her to make her own decisions without my approval needed.
- Plantation. This will be brief. I do think the name should change. I did call the event “Plantation Fields” in my thread topic, because that is still the event’s name. Also @TheMoo
I think that anyone wishing me luck was just wishing me luck. 4 years between events and going back is a lot of fun, but we are members of this forum largely because of the friendships established here. Even those who are not in favor of a name still can want their horse friends to have a good show. If we can’t grasp that, then we are in a lot of trouble as people.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹Em
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You lost me at the moral relativism in point #2. There are plenty of things folks can disagree about without doing harm. Established facts and ethics ought not to be two of them if we don’t want to live among wolves. Disagree at your own peril.
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And what are your interpretations of the facts relevant to this discussion?
Em
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@carolprudm here’s a link describing it and some photos. It basically is a cord that continues down the leg to the spur through a hole in his boot.
https://equineink.com/2020/06/30/us-team-rider-accused-of-using-electric-spurs/
Snipped because :lol::lol::lol:
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I’ll just put the same quote I put on GM threads.
“Be wary of the company you keep for they are a reflection of who you are, not who you think you are”
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Don’t see the problem there. She probably would also rather her friend not use AK on her horses as well. Saying she thinks the name should change doesn’t mean she is going around saying everyone that disagrees is racist or evil. Having an opinion on something isn’t making a moral choice for anyone. You are reeeeally reaching for a way she is being hypocritical and I’m not sure why.
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I think we need to clarify things a bit. This is a horse show friend that has long ago earned my respect in a myriad of ways. Do we agree on everything? No. Do we ride the same? No. Do we care deeply for our horses and our families, yes. That’s where the line stops folks. It’s not any of our places to go up to her face and tell her that what she’s done is wrong. She posted about it proudly on her Facebook page, where I saw it. She knows his history and she’s supporting the guy.
You can have the opinions you have, but we don’t all need to go berate people for differing from ourselves. He didn’t use the spurs on her horse. He didn’t abuse the horse (beyond riding it in his ‘normal’ riding style) and moreover she is FULLY capable of telling folks off when she disagrees with them. So I don’t feel like I have to go up to her and spout off about her choices. I don’t feel like our friends have to be all or nothing of a mirror image of our beliefs. That would make the world a FAR more boring place. And yes, I will defend all of my friend’s abilities to make choices for themselves and their animals that make sense to them. Why? Because I would want to have my own ability to make my own choices free of outside approval and you all should want that as well.
Because they reallllyy don’t like me. (Shrug) That’s their right.
Em
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Your friend doesn’t care deeply about horses if she is fine with her trainer abusing horses.
You don’t care deeply about « family » if you don’t care your friend trains with a horse abuser.
If you believe otherwise, you are fooling yourself.
That’s where the line stops folks. It’s not any of our places to go up to her face and tell her that what she’s done is wrong. She posted about it proudly on her Facebook page, where I saw it. She knows his history and she’s supporting the guy.
Hush hush, your friend is proud to train with a trainer that have training techniques that are against the FEI rules.
Hush hush, your friend believe it’s ok to train with electrical spurs.
You can have the opinions you have, but we don’t all need to go berate people for differing from ourselves. He didn’t use the spurs on her horse. He didn’t abuse the horse (beyond riding it in his ‘normal’ riding style) and moreover she is FULLY capable of telling folks off when she disagrees with them.
Ahhhhh!
Your friend is ok with horse abuse as long as it doesn’t happen to hers.
So, she couldn’t care less about your horses too.
So I don’t feel like I have to go up to her and spout off about her choices. I don’t feel like our friends have to be all or nothing of a mirror image of our beliefs. That would make the world a FAR more boring place. And yes, I will defend all of my friend’s abilities to make choices for themselves and their animals that make sense to them. Why? Because I would want to have my own ability to make my own choices free of outside approval and you all should want that as well.
I know right!!!
Horse abuse is a personal belief!
It would indeed be so boring if everyone would agree that horse abuse and promoting horse abusers is wrong.
Telling your friend she is wrong doesn’t remove her ability to make her own choice.
Being friend with someone who is training with a horse abuser is also your choice.
It shows the type of person you are.
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It is possible to care and not intervene. If you know your friend is aware of the horse cruelty issue then IMHO it’s not critical that you call them out on it. Probably won’t change the outcome, i.e. friend probably won’t change trainers. If friend was not aware, then yes, they should be told.
Years ago two friends whose husbands happened to be cops started riding with a trainer who then hired an assistant who had a felony record mostly related to drugs (including alcohol). No violence. Not widely known, and not readily googleable unless you knew his first name (he went by his middle name). I chose not to say anything bc there was no horse cruelty or child abuse involved. Might have said something if it was just one of them, but the husband of the other could get difficult. Eventually they found out.
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I read the facts as you wrote them. Really, however, that’s not where you did wrong (nor that I can possibly know whether you did or did not since I don’t have more information that you gave. The problematic part, as I wrote above, was the moral relativism you chose.
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FEI Tribunal Imposes Ten-Year Suspension on Andrew Kocher
The United States Equestrian Federation (USEF) unequivocally supports the decision of the FEI Tribunal to suspend athlete Andrew Kocher for 10 years and disqualify his results from eight events between June 2018 and November 2019 for the use of electric spurs. Mr. Kocher has also been fined CHF 10,000 and ordered to pay costs of CHF 7,500. USEF will reciprocate the suspension which began provisionally October 28, 2020 pending the FEI Tribunal hearing.
“The U.S. Jumping Team does not tolerate any form of cheating or horse abuse and fully stands behind the outcome of the FEI Tribunal decision. Horses are our willing and trusted partners in sport and deserve our ultimate care and respect in the pursuit of excellence. It is our duty as athletes and leaders in the sport to put the welfare of the horse first while ensuring a fair and level playing field at all times,” said, Robert Ridland, U.S. Jumping Chef d’Equipe & Technical Advisor.
USEF also acknowledges the effectiveness of the FEI process that allowed the full and thorough investigation, which was instrumental to the final outcome. Further information on the reasoned decision will be forthcoming from the FEI.
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Pleasantly surprised by this ruling.
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Amazing. I was just saying to friends this morning that the 3 year suspension for the Brazilian dressage rider made me hopeful they’d really crack down on Kocher and voila!
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Couldn’t be happier. He is a blister on the butt of show jumping. despicable human being. May as well take up cycling now.
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