Andrew McConnon horse abuse

[IFG]

Agreed.

[floppyammy]

So… in regards to Matt Brown’s post, AMC is a 38 year old Man. Who has a lengthy history of the abuses he is accused of. At least 10+ years, if we follow the timeline of personal, first-hand accounts that have been shared.

How long are we supposed to allow a rider to learn to “do better”.

Not loving this response, at all. It hits wrong.

[trubandloki]

Very well said. I agree!!!

[trubandloki]

@floppyammy

So… in regards to Matt Brown’s post, AMC is a 38 year old Man. Who has a lengthy history of the abuses he is accused of. At least 10+ years, if we follow the timeline of personal, first-hand accounts that have been shared.

How long are we supposed to allow a rider to learn to “do better”.

Not loving this response, at all. It hits wrong.

I think that post very much points out the difference between those who have learned that the old way is not the right way, and that we need to do better and people like AM who are not doing that.

You (general) just need to stop being angry at everyone who ever used a crop and notice the difference to see that some people have learned and are not that anymore.

[Bensmom]

I’ve spent a lot of time over the last few weeks thinking about redemption, forgiveness, and grace. About how and when we offer it, and to whom and when it is “deserved.”

I thought this post (Matt and Cecily’s) was pretty vulnerable, and illustrated how the world has changed, and I appreciated the courage it took to write it and to make the admissions contained therein. But I understand that the last sentence mentions holding “the human” (we all know that Andrew is who is being discussed here, but there are countless other top riders who could slot in here, maybe not with this exact abuse, but actions that are also despicable) accountable for their actions, but it does jump to already planning for forgiveness.

I am puzzled by the number of conversations about forgiveness, and stopping a “pile on” or “witch hunt” that are happening when there is a crucial element to a path to grace or forgiveness that is glaring in its absence here: An apology, or request for forgiveness. An expression of remorse or some sort of dedication to do and be better has not been seen anywhere.

One of the questions this situation raises for me is whether society no longer has actions that justify casting someone out of the group for, in the end? At what point does drawing a boundary become an acceptable thing to do? Part of the rules that govern society are that there are behaviors so egregious that you will be cast out for crossing a line. Have we reached a point to where that is no longer a real threat, because before there is even a reckoning, an apology or a “holding accountable,” we are already saying, in essence, “Stay here in our warm group. We will still love you.” If that is the case, is that not a weakening of the rules involved in safely interacting with others if the possibility of banishment no longer has teeth?

I’ve personally had to walk away from two or three situations in the last year, where no longer including the person in my small circle was the healthiest thing for me. And there is a lot of info out there on mental health and positive support for setting boundaries. But, on the other hand, there is also a strong cultural pervasiveness of forgiveness and inclusion, and I’ve had to deal with a strong internal narrative that what “true friends” and “really good people” do is to forgive, and move on. But, in some instances, that just keeps something malignant within a person, friendship, or organization. Which is terribly unhealthy.

As I’ve gotten older, I guess I’ve become a lot more inflexible. Let’s face it – there is no one that thinks the actions depicted in these videos is correct training, or ok in any way. There are no two sides to this discussion. I cannot think of this rider, or anyone else choosing to include this in a training video or a clinic as an acceptable training method. I’m uncomfortable with the reaching out to an abuser, especially prior to any admission of regret, and offering forgiveness. We shouldn’t have to get to a point that the only thing that kicks you out of the community is electrocuting horses for money.

Maybe I’m just tired of the attitude that forgiveness is “deserved” protecting and perpetuating abusers of people and animals.

[stellacadente]

Thanks for saying this!

[simc24]

I was wondering if someone would post this. I find this post to be yet another soft support of Andrew, with an undertone of “well maybe he just didn’t have the right tools, and we should show him grace. His poor mental health”. It’s utter BS and the amount of ULRs that have supported it and shared it honestly nauseate me. No, I’m sorry Matt & Cecily Brown - I have never in my life hit my horse in the face repeatedly (or even once), I’ve never tied a horse’s head to their legs, I’ve never left dozens of welt marks on a hindquarter. Even in my teens and 20s when I was less educated. Being uneducated on how to fix new problems that arise does not give anyone license to terrorize their animals, which is what these videos amount to.

The whole thing makes me so sick it makes me not even want to continue eventing. Makes me want to just enjoy my horses at home and not be around all these people that apparently think some medium-level of horse abuse is warranted and forgivable.

[SaddleFitterVA]

@ake987

Quoting from the Matt Cecily Brown Post you pasted from Facebook

Furthermore, I would add that when reading back this stream of consciousness that is this essay, the thing I worried the most about making public was not my own transgressions, but whether or not naming the transgressions I’ve witnessed or have been privy to are sparse enough on details as to not blatantly identify the perpetrators, as I myself, while disgusted by these actions, am not ready to be the whistleblower. And for that fact I also feel shame.

The part that grabbed my attention on this was this bit, buried in the middle. Just look the other way is how this reads.

Nobody who has a guilty conscience about using abusive training methods wants to be the one who reports current abusive training methods.

We’ve all likely witnessed a yank in anger, or even an overuse of whip, not to the point of welts, but unfairly applied, rollkur, a horse ridden deep for too long, longing to excess, painting the spur marks before going in the show ring, cranked nosebands, etc. But many of those things have become “normalized” at competitions and in many barns, it is hard for a person who only witnesses one minor incident to think reporting would be the thing to do.

I’ve got a small, private farm. A backyard barn, so to speak. I ship out for most lessons, meet people at shows to show with a trainer’s group. How happy the horses are is a key indicator, but if you don’t live with horses, you might not recognize a mildly stressed horse, or the overall energy of a barn.

If the professionals/leaders in our sport aren’t ok with speaking out against abusive practices, we need to figure out how to change the culture so that they are ok with speaking up. But, that’s a tall order.

[trubandloki]

@SaddleFitterVA

If the professionals/leaders in our sport aren’t ok with speaking out against abusive practices, we need to figure out how to change the culture so that they are ok with speaking up

That post was speaking up.

Not reporting someone is not the same as not speaking up.

I do not consider someone not being willing to report historical/past things as someone who is hiding behind not reporting. There was a great example of whip use that was given and how now they now see how they rode that all wrong, but back then everyone said how great it was.

[SaddleFitterVA]

Unless that person is confronting the abusers, or telling someone, then IMNSHO it IS the same as not speaking up.

If I knew a person was sexually abusing a child and I merely went online and decried “speaking up” how awful pedophiles who sexually abuse children are, and did not “report”, then I would be part of the many who imply that it’s ok, by not reporting.

[DownYonder]

Journalism no longer reports “Just the facts, Ma’am.”

Instead, the emphasis is on sensationalism - anything to inflame the passions of the reader and generate more readership, more clicks, more traction for the story, author, publisher, etc.

IOW, revenue is the name of the game - rigorous adherence to the facts be damned.

[kt]

@ake987

So I would like to offer that this line between training and abuse has not always been a crystal clear unmistakably illuminated line.

Horse training used to be brutal, and that was accepted. Horse training is often still brutal, and thankfully, hopefully, little by little, that brutality is more easily recognized and less readily accepted. And I hope that in 50 years the line between training and brutality will be so blatantly clear that we won’t have to have these conversations and arguments anymore. But we are not there yet. We are in a growth period and a very grey area still. What is one man’s training is another man’s abuse. Which doesn’t excuse the abuse, but it does mean that those of us who seek to build a better sport and better horseman must focus on education and not condemnation.

So, in this moment, if we are going to condemn one, we should likely condemn all, because picking and choosing who we string up surely won’t effectively move the sport forward.

I guess I’m having a difficult time understanding where the grey area comes in when we’re discussing punching a horse in the face, leaving giant welts over its body, tying its head to its tail and probably many other atrocities most of us thankfully aren’t aware of at this moment. If that’s not abuse, where exactly would he have us draw the line for abuse?

Also, why should abuse NOT be condemned? Why should we NOT be calling out someone with a pathological and historically documented compulsion to terrorize and harm animals in his care? And why should his condemnation automatically require the same punishment of others who might have (on a completely different scale) lost their tempers, made mistakes or been unnecessarily rough in the past?

It was a vulnerable post by Matt and Cecily, but their reasoning I feel was flawed.

(PS I know this is a quote from Matt Brown and not ake987 )

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ake987

Many people grew up immersed in an equestrian culture where cruelty was widely practiced and accepted. I doubt most folks would dispute that. But in the last several years in particular, the topic of abuse has become unavoidable. And so too, IMO, has the question anyone involved with horses should be asking themselves: can I do better?

When people responsible for the training, health and wellbeing of horses do not ask themselves this question, when they do not seek to improve (or worse, subject anyone around them who questions their methods to verbal and emotional abuse), when they remain committed to their cruelty, I think there is great risk in suggesting “picking and choosing who we string up surely won’t effectively move the sport forward” and I disagree.

In this case, we are talking about an adult, a professional, punching horses in the head - and that is only a single transgression - caught on video multiple times.

Why are we talking about grace and forgiveness and empathy before any consequences from governing bodies have been doled out? Why are we shielding abusers and not horses?

Lastly, can we give the emotionally charged language a rest? “Stringing up”, “blackmail”, just today a former USEA President responded to me with “witch hunt” and “hijacking” (on today, of all days).

I appreciate you sharing the longer post from Matt Brown and Cecily Clark’s Facebook page. It is indeed being shared widely by upper level riders.

I personally think that the content of the post, on its own, is very thoughtful and well written and well intended.

The challenge I have with it is that it seems like many many people in the equestrian community are heading down the path of conflating/equating what has been alleged to have happened in Andrew McConnon’s program with other issues.

Errors in judgement happen. Especially when it comes to intensely competitive top tier athletes, in a high adrenaline moment, in an incredibly intense sport. People use their whip one too many times. People push a horse too hard on cross country when competing at a 4 or 5 star, when they are only a few jumps from the finish. These things do happen. It’s unfortunate… and sometimes it can be fairly characterized as abusive… but I think that’s a different matter than what has gone on with the AM allegations.

So though I think the long reflection from Matt & Cecily was good… I do struggle with how some seem to be conflating certain issues in terms of poor momentary choices when working with horses … choices that are not good and should be penalized in competition, reflected on and improved upon when in the barn… etc… well - conflating that with what is alleged to have happened in Andrew’s program.

I think Allie Conrad’s response on Facebook to this post, and a public exchange of comments she had with Liza Horan about it REALLY highlight what is alleged to have happened in AMs program over a period of years, and just how serious these allegations are… I will quote the exchange here…

Allie C:

Agree with lots. I just had the conversation that we all reach levels of frustration, anger and temper as we wander through training horses, but the reflection of that loss of temper should set us back and guide us toward seeking new answers—putting new tools in our toolbox, recognizing those moments before we “lose it”. I think it happens in your 30s and 40s but a regular campaign of brutality with no outward growth is indicative of a mental defect.
I don’t want a witch hunt, I want horses safe.

Liza H:

Allie Conrad many years ago you described the trauma that your horse endured to me in that system. It was quite a few years later that I rode a horse out of that program and I told the owner he was the scariest horse I have ever ridden in my life. That’s a bold statement for me, and I did not say it flippantly. He was so traumatized and his reactions were so violent that it had to come from repetitive abuse. Thank you for speaking out. I applaud you.

Allie C:

Liza Horan thank you. I understand what Matt is saying but I hope nobody is reducing a regular campaign of terrorizing horses for 12+ years to simple mistakes we have all made…that’s not the situation here—but I do appreciate the sentiment that we are all out here trying to be better.

Liza, my horse was kicked in the face and belly so hard he was falling down and disoriented. That was in 2014.
The farm where that happened has stated they will testify if need be with the multiple witnesses.
This is years of terror with no apparent change. That’s mental illness with a side of incredible, deep rage. When it was reported to me I didn’t believe it.

[trubandloki]

@SaddleFitterVA

Unless that person is confronting the abusers, or telling someone, then IMNSHO it IS the same as not speaking up.

If I knew a person was sexually abusing a child and I merely went online and decried “speaking up” how awful pedophiles who sexually abuse children are, and did not “report”, then I would be part of the many who imply that it’s ok, by not reporting.

The post talks about things from the past.

I see no where this person makes the leap that moving forward they will not report things.

I find the comparison to sexually abusing a child kind of gross.

[peedin]

Who are Matt and Cecily Brown? Serious question.

[beowulf]

Very well said. That vulnerable post does not make clear is that there is a difference between frustration and malice. You can forgive an accident, a momentary lapse of patience, a bad day – but you cannot forgive unspeakable evil.

My 2 cents.

[Baybaybay765]

I think the question you are getting at possibly, is why now? Why have these people know for 10 years that he treated horses this way and haven’t spoken up until now? I’m glad they finally did but it’s concerning this level of abuse has been going on this long and no one’s felt comfortable saying anything. Who else do people know about but won’t say anything about

[Mondo]

@dmveventer

“The bottom line here is that the USEF can make all the rules they want, but they have NO JURISDICTION to adjudicate anything that happens on private property.”

As the OP I will chime in on my comment there. What I didn’t say, is that if there is proof, i.e., video, photos, etc., then it should not matter where the incident occurs. I said what you’ve quoted above because USEF is not a police entity. They could not “investigate” on private property. Short of verified, legitimate proof and eye witnesses willing to talk, there isn’t much in the way of investigation they could do.

[SaddleFitterVA]

Abuse is kind of gross.

[LSBC]

One of the things I was thinking about after Matt and Cecily’s post is that it seems to be the “trendy” (for lack of a better word) thing to do to ride aggressively on a “difficult” horse. I am mostly in the showjumping world and I have noticed that if a rider has a round where their horse isn’t quite under control, or they might have a few rails, they go through the timers and immediately start seesawing to prove a point. There seems to be this idea that you have to actively make your horse look “difficult” or as if they’re not listening if something doesn’t go your way to prove that it “isn’t the rider’s fault.” That’s what the post made me think of because big name riders and young riders alike do it all the time. There’s a huge difference between giving your horse a correction versus doing something under the guise of a correction that is actually unnecessary and, generally, people see it as acceptable.