Hard disagree. Abusive people are going to find ways regardless. If well intentioned individuals are in the dark, then little can be done to stop actual abuse. As evident with this thread, sometimes people need to be taught what practices are abusive so they can be identified. People that do not abuse horses are not going to have the same thinking as those that do. If one doesn’t know people are withholding water, they do not know to look for empty buckets because the idea never even occurred to them to purposely withhold water. Abusers, horse abusers specifically, thrive on other people’s ignorance and conducting abuse in discrete ways that slip under the radar so that when the horse is inevitably paraded out for all to see, no one has a clue that the horse has been abused.
When I said “messing with them” (the lights) I was referring to this statement
No one at a USEF show would take it upon themselves to do that, so I assume this happens at a local show. Most people are familiar with the rules and USEF has Stewards who are responsible for enforcing them. If the lights are on when you don’t think they should be, you notify a Steward. Most Stewards take their jobs seriously. The hours for lights out can be found in the prize list.
I would also say that I trust the vast majority of people on this board and this thread are far from voyeurs. Folks who wade through these lengthy threads just on the off chance they’ll get their jollies b/c they somehow get off on descriptions of horse abuse must be a vanishingly small number of people. That connection just seems highly unlikely here.
I’d say the truly abusive individuals reading the threads are the ones being discussed in the thread’s title. I would bet a pretty penny that AM is following along. Potentially owners that still employ said trainers who I also consider to be abusive. But I agree, I think those that would “pick up tips” are essentially nonexistent.
Even if there were potentially someone reading for nefarious ideas, it still doesn’t overshadow the importance for an educated population. In other words, we should still talk about it.
Yes, I don’t get the ‘if I told you about X…’ code of silence. Why allude to it if you aren’t trying to bring awareness to an issue? If you want to bring awareness to an issue, do so. It was an honest question when I asked why that poster isn’t talking about what they’ve experienced.
Nodding my head in agreement. One could argue that in many situations, silence is complicity. I can understand not wanting to take on legal consequences for naming someone specifically without knowing if the abuse is true, but I can’t think of a good reason to not name abusive practices in general.
I also am bothered by the amount of people who do not report abuse. Many tales of witnessing abuse but when asked if it was reported, the vast majority of the time the answer is no. I can’t hold an individual responsible for the outcome of a report but I can expect someone to at least report it.
I didn’t say that. What I said was, since you don’t show at USEF shows and aren’t a USEF member you might not be aware of the specific rules regarding lights. If you are taking students to USEF shows it would behoove you to read the rulebook so you don’t accidentally get anyone in trouble. Rules about lights are a fairly recent addition for horse benefit.
You can read the rulebook without participating in shows. The rulebook doesn’t say anything about who can or cannot turn on/off lights, nor does it give hours that lights must be off, simply a duration they must be off (how would this even be enforced?!):
If I’m doing night check at 11pm, there are ~5 barns full of horses with all of the lights on, and I’m the only person at the barn, I’m turning off all the lights.
Again, the rules are enforced by the Stewards. The hours for lights out are in the prize list.
Rules aren’t enforced by random people who are unaware of what USEF Stewards do or how the show is structured.
It’s a good thing that you don’t attend USEF shows. If you take it upon yourself to go around shutting off lights, instead of asking the Steward or show management about it at a USEF show, you will likely be asked to leave the showgrounds, and for good reason.
I don’t think this is quite right, or an accurate take away from this thread. People may not have known about withholding water to try to make a horse more submissive, but hardly need to be told that under most circumstances, stalled horses should have access to water. The more nefarious things are nearly impossible to observe without a lot of access to the horses in question — which the stewards may have to some degree but other competitors or spectators do not.
And again, a lot of competitions do not involve stabling. This is of course different in different parts of the country, but returning to the original subject of this thread, a lot of of what was happening probably was not happening at competitions.
On the subject of well-intentioned bystander intervention, back in the days and in an area where I did a lot of overnight stabling at competitions, I was responsible for a mare who could be quite vicious in the stall. I and everyone else at our barn knew this about her and had a system of handling her safely (basically put the halter on before you enter the stall). But a well-intentioned stranger who entered her stall to top off a water bucket if they got there a few minutes before me on a morning where she drank more than usual overnight could have had a very nasty surprise, putting themselves and the mare at risk. We also had a pony who was an incredible escape artist, and we knew how to keep him in the stall while we opened it, But again someone trying to help out could have caused a problem. For these and other reasons, I don’t condone watering, feeding, or caring for other people’s horses at a show. If you see something wrong, absolutely report it to officials or contact the rider or owner listed on the stall card. But unless you know the people responsible for the horse and have an understanding with them, I don’t think that you should involve yourself in the care of someone else’s horse unless there is an immediate emergency situation.
(Also, if my horse finished two buckets of water overnight, but someone else refilled them without my knowledge, I might be incorrectly concerned that the horse was dehydrated.)
Exactly.
Definitely contact the person on the stall card, or the Steward if need be, but never interfere with other people’s horses without their knowledge and consent.
I think most people know this, and realize that they can do more harm than good even if they mean well.
My post was not intended to summarize this entire thread. It was an addition to the conversation.
Withholding water was an example. Please do not dismiss my point based solely on this example. It is obvious that horses need water. What is not obvious is that people are unfairly withholding water as a way to affect performance. That was my point.
I also agree that you should not intervene and act on the owner’s behalf or enter an unknown horses stall. But what does that have to do with the direction of this conversation? Someone was implying that we shouldn’t discuss abuse tactics at all because it could give someone ideas. Someone else brought up abuse tactics by a deceased professional and for some unknown reason won’t discuss them. I disagree with both. I did not say all things can be caught nor did I say all abuse occurs at a showground. I’m saying that abuse tactics should be discussed so that people can intervene by reporting if possible.
And I disagree that nefarious things are always impossible to observe. Some of those signs might be tails that do not move, a horse that can’t lift its head due to being tied, sores on a horse’s legs, a horse that habitually does not have water, etc. But really, what is the harm in discussing things anyways? What is the alternative?
Just to clarify, in USEF Eventing there are no stewards. In this country Eventing Stewards only exist at FEI level and are FEI licensed officials. The subject of national stewards comes up from time to time, but gets shot down.
Oh I would never refill someone’s bucket without their knowledge. I haven’t needed to call for empty buckets, but have absolutely called for standing wraps coming off and a cast horse. I’d call on an empty bucket, too, and offer to refill to avoid the owner needing to come out.
Yes, I was referring to H/J land, but in Eventing’s case, doesn’t show management enforce the USEF/USEA rules, or is it a free for all, except at the FEI level?
For what it’s worth, we actually do turn off the lights when we are done in our barns for the evening. USEF or FEI. Not always and not every barn, but most of the time I see dark barns from my trailer by the time I crash for the evening (typically earlier than the mandatory lights out). There’s nothing prohibiting a person from turning off the lights, it’s just mom or dad has to go around after the children to make sure all the lights are off in accordance with the rule.
The new USEF rule (does it apply to Eventing?) is in effect beginning December of this year. There are specific “lights out for six hours”, now to be determined by show management. I think they will take into consideration the length of daylight as the seasons change.
I am thinking of the effect of the rule on H/J, since someone on this thread blamed the plethora of rules on the miscreants in the jumper world.
Of course you turn your own lights off, but going to every “barn” and turning their lights off isn’t OK.
Thinking that people should just blindly follow rules and not think for themselves and do what is best for the horse is the reason we’re in this mess. I give zero Fs if you think the rules preclude me from turning lights off (they don’t). I’m going to do what’s best for the horse, especially when it doesn’t involve me entering someone else’s horse’s stall without permission (I would never do that). Turning lights off is literally the most benign thing I can do (if someone needs them, they can gasp turn them back on!) that will undoubtedly help those horses sleep better at night, and that is the only thing I care about.
