Angola Prison Horse Sale

[Alagirl]

@SpotznStripes;5759293

Although I agree that some of these horses are decent, you make it sound like there is a lack of quality horses out there - the horse market is bursting at the seams in this country and you can’t tell me there isn’t already a horse out there somewhere that can’t fill every possible need when 100,000+ horses a year are being sent to slaughter in the U.S. Personally, I find this “enterprise” - they aren’t exactly giving the horses away for free with that free inmate labor - irresponsible.

The value of a horse might be subjective…the price of the labor has nothing to do with it. The amount of care does however. The horses seem to have their niche for which the customers would other wise have to look for long and hard and through a lot of individual ‘breeders’ of a similar mix.
They are no more irresponsible than any other breeder, individual or corporation who still keeps breeding.
While times are tough right now, there will be times when things have settled down. Horses are perishable goods, you just have to keep breeding to continue what you have.

They even say on the Web site: “The Angola Prison Horse Sale is part of the third weekend of the Angola Rodeo…What began 40 years ago as a “fun” thing by a handful of rodeo-loving inmates and employees is now big business. Proceeds from the Angola Prison Rodeo cover rodeo expenses and supplement the Louisiana State Penitentiary Inmate Welfare Fund which provides for inmate educational and recreational supplies.”

would it make you feel any better if the warden got a new car? The Prison is making some money off a program. Be happy and smile: Less money out of the coffers of the state that can be put to better use elsewhere.
Those men work on the horses and reap the benefits from it. They are kept in horses (which hopefully means out of trouble) and they are productive. What is your beef with that?
That they don’t do it through basket weaving?

There are a million other ways they could make a buck, and just as much horse experience could be gained picking up one of the dozens of unbroke horses being funneled through their local auction on a weekly basis. So much for teaching social responsibility…someone please tell me they are liquidating or that these horses were in fact not purposely bred

We need a ‘slam the head into a wall’ icon for moments like these.
This is part of a 40 year tradition. Count back forty years, see how the world looked…

The unbroke horses ‘funneled’ through the auction might not fit what they want to do with their program.

How many ways can I put it…
breeding horses is also a marketable skill in the industry outside the prison. It is VERY different from just training.
THAT was the path they chose. Somebody HAS to breed horses, it might as well be a prison.

Let’s not kid ourselves: The mix they present costs you about 10k when a private farm offers it. Add a bit extra when they put a fancy name with it.

Again, though I did not look at more than 3 of the stock offered, they look nicely put together, given the background of Mounted Police there as well, they look nice enough to consider them, certainly in a modest price range and with plenty of potential.

That is certainly something to consider vs the mutt you grab at a sale…you just don’t know if you are dealing with something that only exists because the dam was to crazy/lame to be ridden…
(or has been put through the ringer by some well meaning but clueless home trained horse guru…)

[bayou_bengal]

Well, there was a post on the Fugly blog a couple weeks ago about horses bred by the Texas state prison system ending up being bought at an open auction by a known kill buyer and probably headed to Mexico for slaughter.

The Angola “warmblood” breeding program is not all that old, but the tradition of using horses for the mounted guards who watch over the gangs of men doing farm work harks back to just after the Civil War when what is now part of the LSP property was still actually a plantation named Angola.

Local tradition has it that before the War, the plantation owner had several slaves from the Angola region in Africa, so he named his plantation after it as a sort of cruel joke, saying that now they didn’t have to concern themselves with wanting to go back to Angola because they were now already there.

Later, after the war, the owner leased convicts from the state to work his cotton fields, since all of his slaves had been freed. Eventually, the state bought out this plantation owner and then bought up several thousand acres surrounding it to enlarge it. The state then made Angola its largest and only state prison. Eventually other prisons were built, but Angola is the oldest and the one with the bloodiest reputation. It is has been the state’s maximum security prison for decades now. It als houses the convicted murderers sentenced to “death row.” Angola is where the state executes them.

In the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, Quarter Horses or Walking Horses or their crossbreds where the horses of choice for the guards. The prison also has a herd of cattle and horses where also needed to work cattle. Some inmates became famed for their leatherwork and guards used to be able to custom order saddles made by them as well as belts, and holsters and even wallets.

There is a documentary about Angola called "The Farm. The “commercial arm” of Louisiana’s prison system is called “Prison Enterprises” and it oversees several agricultural projects at prisons all over the state.

The “warmblood” breeding program is just part of what it is “into.” Angola or rather PE did a good business selling horses to various police mounted patrol units all over the country, until the economy went bad and many departments stopped buying new horses and some even disbanded their units. Some of my friends and I think that the slowing of sales to police departments partly was the catalyst for this new public auction during the annual rodeo. In order for PE to sell to the general public, by law, the horses have to be advertised and sold in a public venue.

What could be a better time or place to hold a horse production sale at auction than during the October Angola Rodeo. Thousands of people will be there for the rodeo and the inmate arts and crafts booths. Yes, they still do leatherwork.

I think it is good that Angola holds its own auction instead of selling horses off without minimums as apparently the State of Texas prisons did. Certainly a $500 minimum plus the long ride to Angola would discourage any “meat men” from attending.

In the 1990s, when the current warden at Angola was warden at another prison, he introduced Percheron horses and a program to teach inmates how to manage horses and train them. When he was named warden at Angola, some of the Percherons went along, too. Angola still has a four-horse hitch of Percherons that will make appearances in parades. I’m sure there are also several Percheron broodmares there as well as a couple of Percheron stallions. In fact, when I saw the hitch at a parade in July, there was at least one stallion in the hitch.

I had several friends who attended. Some of the horses offered either did not receive bids or were no saled. The highest bid was for an experienced horse well under saddle. I believe he was bought by a police officer from Slidell, LA.

Several of the horses went for between $350 and $500. One horse that sold at the auction for $1,500 was re-sold a month later at a local auction barn and was bought for only $400. She was a warmblood/Percheron/TB cross, if I remember correctly. She was advertised on one of those internet sales sites in January for the same $400.

There is a website where you can preview the horses offered at the upcoming sale. I’m sure there is an email or phone number listed that anyone can call, if they want more information. There was a thread on coth last year about the first Angola horse sale.

[SpotznStripes]

Alagirl - I’ll give you this, I agree that rescue/auction horses can have all kinds of issues…its nice to go through a breeder where you can have a full history on a horse and know exactly what you’re getting…and yes, there generally aren’t quality horses going through your local auction…these prison horses look like they’d be suitable for a variety of disciplines and I’m sure they are cheaper than if they were coming out of private breeding farms.

But horse breeding is a terrible business to be in right now…because too many people are doing it and there simply aren’t enough buyers. Nobody knows what the future holds in terms of the economy. Really, the inmates probably would be better off focusing on basket weaving as a future career…but the point is they could be learning skills that generate reliable income and fill a needed niche in society. There’s nothing reliable about the horse business, and there’s thousands of high quality animals for sale out there. These horses are cheap because of how they are being produced…and I think the horses and the inmates are being used for a quick buck in the name of tradition and “horse therapy.”

Oh and BTW why aren’t these guys wearing helmets!? I equate lack of a helmet with lack of a brain worth protecting (in this case whoever is head of their training program over there)

[SpotznStripes]

Alagirl - I’ll give you this, I agree that rescue/auction horses can have all kinds of issues…its nice to go through a breeder where you can have a full history on a horse and know exactly what you’re getting…and yes, there generally aren’t quality horses going through your local auction…these prison horses look like they’d be suitable for a variety of disciplines and I’m sure they are cheaper than if they were coming out of private breeding farms.

But horse breeding is a terrible business to be in right now…because too many people are doing it and there simply aren’t enough buyers. Nobody knows what the future holds in terms of the economy. Really, the inmates probably would be better off focusing on basket weaving as a future career…but the point is they could be learning skills that generate reliable income and fill a needed niche in society. There’s nothing reliable about the horse business, and there’s thousands of high quality animals for sale out there. These horses are cheap because of how they are being produced…and I think the horses and the inmates are being used for a quick buck in the name of tradition and “horse therapy.” Build them a petting zoo. Have them sell things we need more of - solar panels? organic farming? at a lower price and that sets them up for real success in the future.

Oh and BTW why aren’t these guys wearing helmets!? I equate lack of a helmet with lack of a brain worth protecting (in this case whoever is head of their training program over there)

[cajunbelle]

Lets see, they must have an auction in order to sell anything, you can’t just go up and knock on the door. Most of these prisoners are lifers and they have found a good thing “horses” to keep the prisoners minds occupied. No matter how ill fitting you seem to think the breeding program is, it serves a purpose.

Unless you truly want to live in a socialist society, in the US, we all have the right to make mistakes and breed what we want. If you don’t like those freedoms given to us…move!

[paulaedwina]

I don’t think it has to be all one or the other. Take dogs for example. I like rhodesian ridgebacks and all my ridgies have been from the pound or rescue. I have no problem going that route for them again. I also like german shepherds but if I wanted one of those I would not likely be going through rescue because generally speaking as a line, the American GSD has been ruined by poor breeding practices. I’d more likely go find myself a quality German line and buy a pup.

Similarly in horses I would say that the market is indeed full, but is it full of quality horses? Depends on what you’re looking for (and I’m not really addressing the big ticket horses here). If you’re looking for a TB they are thick on the ground. Looking for a trail horse - you got it. I’m here to tell you though that finding a well put together draft cross with specific purposes in mind was not so cut and dried. If you’re looking for a draft cross and someone says to you, “but look at all these TBs going to slaughter” that doesn’t really help you.

There’s more to it than simply “I need a dog” or “I need a horse”.

Paula

[lesson_junkie]

Many of those horses have “field hunter” stamped all over them. Try finding a horse with size, substance, TB thrown in for stamina and speed-all at a field hunter price-not easy. A big handfull of those pictured would make into nice field hunters, I bet.

I need a field hunter right now. If I were ruthless, I would move half of what I have that isn’t suitable, and go down there and look. I don’t mind green, especially when the purchase price leaves enough room for lessons and training.

SpotsnStripes, I’m sure those felons sentenced to Angola for life would be touched to learn you are concerned for their safety.

Watch “The Farm”. You will be glad you aren’t at Angola.

[TKR]

I’d like to see the sales results for this year. If they feel the need to breed, it should be done with quality individuals that are purposely bred and matched well. Just breeding to give these guys something to do doesn’t cut it. I think there are many horses going through sales that don’t have lameness or issues and just fall through the cracks of this economy, including young ones that could be started by these guys. They could shop the tracks and handpick when a meet is over and reschool. I’ve known MANY Thoroughbreds that I bred or OTTB’s I’ve reschooled who are calm and sensible and would be appropriate in many situations. They could work a deal with some of the breeding farms to work with or start youngsters. I just hate to see this sort of “breeding program” when so many are being wasted. It’s senseless.
PennyG

[moonriverfarm]

Parchman Prison in Mississippi takes OTTBs and retrains them for sale. Much better to me to retrain something than to breed more and more.

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=SpotznStripes;5759376]
Alagirl - I’ll give you this, I agree that rescue/auction horses can have all kinds of issues…its nice to go through a breeder where you can have a full history on a horse and know exactly what you’re getting…and yes, there generally aren’t quality horses going through your local auction…these prison horses look like they’d be suitable for a variety of disciplines and I’m sure they are cheaper than if they were coming out of private breeding farms.

But horse breeding is a terrible business to be in right now…because too many people are doing it and there simply aren’t enough buyers. Nobody knows what the future holds in terms of the economy. Really, the inmates probably would be better off focusing on basket weaving as a future career…but the point is they could be learning skills that generate reliable income and fill a needed niche in society. There’s nothing reliable about the horse business, and there’s thousands of high quality animals for sale out there. These horses are cheap because of how they are being produced…and I think the horses and the inmates are being used for a quick buck in the name of tradition and “horse therapy.” Build them a petting zoo. Have them sell things we need more of - solar panels? organic farming? at a lower price and that sets them up for real success in the future.

Oh and BTW why aren’t these guys wearing helmets!? I equate lack of a helmet with lack of a brain worth protecting (in this case whoever is head of their training program over there)[/QUOTE]

What LSP at Angola has lots of is land, cheap unskilled labor and time. As someone else mentioned, most of the men there are lifers, others have very long sentences. Most agricultural endeavors don’t require highly skilled labor.

In reality, I don’t think many of these men will be leaving Angola and seeking employment at horse breeding farms or training facilities. But working in the horse program does provide some of them with a job they enjoy and a reason to “stay on the straight and narrow” and NOT engage in violent behavior. Prison is not polite society, it is a harsh, brutal world.

I am not thrilled that the prison is continuing to produce more horses apparently than it can use, but I would rather see these horses offered at this kind of auction rather than run through a low-end auction in lots.

I know several people personally who have gotten prison horses in the past, and I know several who bought at last year’s sale. All of them feel they got a good horse at a price that was good for them.

As a member of the helmet-optional faction, I find your preoccupation with helmets for the inmates strange and your judgmental tone toward those who choose not to wear them offensive. Please don’t bother to try to turn THIS thread into a “wear a helmet or you are stupid” thread. I have seen this happen to too many threads here already.

There are already horses at Angola and a tradition of horse breeding. I think the prison will maintain a breeding program of some kind, if only because it needs to replace its own horses used by the mounted guards, and used by those who work the cattle herd. It can produce horses for its own use more inexpensively than it can by buying them from private breeding facilities with fancy names.

Probably Angola doesn’t produce solar panels, etc. because the state doesn’t feel the need to invest in a factory, training and materials needed to build them - yet. As I have written, there is an agricultural tradition already in place at Angola. There isn’t a solar panel making tradition. But in the future, who knows?

Oh I almost forgot, I believe they still do make license plates there too.

[BetterOffRed]

I’ve seen this brand on many of the NOPD mounted police horses. They are amazingly calm horses. I am sure most of it is the training, but it speaks well for the breeding.

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=lesson junkie;5759549]

Watch “The Farm”. You will be glad you aren’t at Angola.[/QUOTE]

So true. But Angola is a much better place today than it had been in the past. Lots of reforms have been made, but then prison isn’t supposed to be a “nice” place. Angola is much less violent place than in the past.

I credit reforms like giving the "offenders’ as they now are called jobs to keep them occupied for this change.

I also think allowing church organizations to work with the offenders and allowing the offenders to form clubs and do charitable work has also helped cut down of the violence.

In reality, Angola, in a way, is a strange kind of community- a “town” with an almost all-male population made up of residents who will probably never leave there alive. Many of these men are now old men. And no, I don’t work there, but I did at one time serve on the non-profit board that helped create and oversee the radio station.

In addition to the horse breeding program, and the farm, the prison has various other institutions and enterpises. It has chapels or worship spaces for several faiths, a hospice program, a hospital, its own radio station, a museum, a gift shop, a news-magazine The Angolite and a store where inmates can buy necessities. And like almost everyone else, LSP at Angola even has an official website (Link below)

It also has on-site housing where some of the guards and their families live. It has a grocery store for them as well. The warden actually lives at the prison, too. But he has a very nice house. The children of the “free people” who work and live there attend an elementary school at Tunica, another community near Angola until they reach middle school. Then they travel about 25 miles by bus down to Bains where the parish’s public middie school and high school are located.

Some offenders do eventually leave alive like Wilbert Rideau, a convicted murderer, who became an award-winning prison journalist and former editor of The Angolite. Many others die and are buried at Angola in the prison cemetery. They make that last journey in a hand-built horse drawn hearse drawn by one of Angola’s Percherons. They are buried in a coffin made by fellow prisoners.

To learn more about LSP at Angola, click this link-http://doc.louisiana.gov/LSP/

LSP even has an on-line store where you can buy one of their T-Shirts that reads “Angola- A Gaited Community” They even have a sense of humor, although it might be termed “gallows humor.” ;).

[Foxtrot_s]

The PMU farms are producing this type of horse – hundreds of them. They are a by-product of the industry…some very nice ones, too.

[MunchingonHay]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;5759964]
The PMU farms are producing this type of horse – hundreds of them. They are a by-product of the industry…some very nice ones, too.[/QUOTE]

You know what would be a great idea, send the foals down to the prisons to raise, train and market. The “product” is collected from the mares, the babies gain training and knowledge to become solid riding horses and the prison would not be breeding more horses.

I see; win-win-win all around !

[bayou_bengal]

[QUOTE=MunchingonHay;5760112]
You know what would be a great idea, send the foals down to the prisons to raise, train and market. The “product” is collected from the mares, the babies gain training and knowledge to become solid riding horses and the prison would not be breeding more horses.

I see; win-win-win all around ![/QUOTE]

Great idea. But then what future would the prison’s broodmares and stallions face? Would you see one group of horses face possible auction and slaughter in order to “save” another set of horses’ offspring?

Or are you suggsesting that the prison just allow the horses they already have just live out their lives on “The Farm” like most of the offenders?

Many of these mares are not trained to ride or drive and would be difficult to train as they are older. Same probably goes for the stallions.

[cajunbelle]

Why has this turned into a breeding debate? :mad:
I don’t care for overcrowding… but I don’t go around telling others, not to have children. You can only complain about tooo many horses if you have “NEVER” bred, left one a stallion or added another horse into the system. You cannot think that only certain breeds/types are acceptable, while others are not.
Live and let live, you can only control yourselves.

[MunchingonHay]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;5760128]
Great idea. But then what future would the prison’s broodmares and stallions face? Would you see one group of horses face possible auction and slaughter in order to “save” another set of horses’ offspring?

Or are you suggsesting that the prison just allow the horses they already have just live out their lives on “The Farm” like most of the offenders?

Many of these mares are not trained to ride or drive and would be difficult to train as they are older. Same probably goes for the stallions.[/QUOTE]

We don’t know the age of the mares, so perhaps they are at the end of their breeding career, or perhaps they could be trained to ride or drive. Just because a horse has some age on it does not mean they are not capable to learn new things.

I am not suggesting that they change the operation over night, just start with 10 babies or so.

They could use the Dutch stallion at the PMU farm, build a partnership with the ‘farmers’ and the prison operations.

I am just trying to get a pro-active way of thinking.

This is one of the reasons I do not participate on a lot of threads, because someone will jump on a poster for seemingly no reason. All I did was make a suggestion, and I get cast as someone that does not care about another group of horses.

[MunchingonHay]

[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;5760128]
Great idea. But then what future would the prison’s broodmares and stallions face? Would you see one group of horses face possible auction and slaughter in order to “save” another set of horses’ offspring?

Or are you suggsesting that the prison just allow the horses they already have just live out their lives on “The Farm” like most of the offenders?

Many of these mares are not trained to ride or drive and would be difficult to train as they are older. Same probably goes for the stallions.[/QUOTE]

We don’t know the age of the mares, so perhaps they are at the end of their breeding career, or perhaps they could be trained to ride or drive. Just because a horse has some age on it does not mean they are not capable to learn new things.

I am not suggesting that they change the operation over night, just start with 10 babies or so.

They could use the Dutch stallion at the PMU farm, build a partnership with the ‘farmers’ and the prison operations.

I am just trying to get a pro-active way of thinking.

This is one of the reasons I do not participate on a lot of threads, because someone will jump on a poster for seemingly no reason. All I did was make a suggestion, and I get cast as someone that does not care about another group of horses.

[Alagirl]

You guys are under the assumption that the PMU farms are near by and parting with their foals for pittans :lol:

In case any of you have missed the boat: A lot of the farms have lost their contracts several years ago.

[Foxtrot_s]

I guess the PMU farms take care of the northern needs, and the Louisianna horses take care of the southern. … But there are still a lot of PMU’s being raised, even though the amount has been cut due to less need for the hormone.