Ankle losing contact in 2 point

[CalJumper]

I’ve been working hard on my seat and position, and had some breakthroughs in maintaining good soft contact with with my ankle in the posting trot and 3 point canter. However I’m struggling with maintaining that ankle contact when I’m in 2 point or doing other exercises like standing in the stirrups.

I’m riding a tall slab sided TB, and feel like I have less difficulty on horses with a rounder barrel, but still lose a slight bit of that ankle contact.

I should add that I am a (mostly) reformed thigh/knee gripper and had a braced position in case that gives anyone clues for what might still be challenging me.

I want to make my leg more secure by practicing more 2 point but want to do it right, any suggestions?

[fordtraktor]

I don’t think you want ankle contact per se. I think you want calf contact and equal contact wrapped all the way down your leg through your calf, but I don’t grip with my ankles and wouldn’t want to. they are an aid to be applied with discretion. I use my heels to ask my horse to go forward or laterally, but not constantly. That stops at the calf. Then flex down in your heels and keep them soft and absorbing.

Hope that helps!

[M_O_Connor]

Keep your toes out slightly, and think about drawing your heels down, back and in, but not everyone’s ankle is in contact with the horse’s side when in the correct position because some of it has to do with the horse’s conformation and size. Practicing 2 point is only one aspect of developing a strong, secure base. Work without stirrups (sitting to maximize leg/seat contact, posting to build strength) is another.

You may have nailed it already in talking about the shape of your horse’s barrel. We like to think that every rider and horse fit each other like a glove, but sometimes that’s not the case.

It’s hard to give more specific advice without seeing a video or at least photos.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I also don’t want ankle contact during the ride. Heel contact for aids and signals, then that lower leg past the calf should be away from the horse. If you are constantly in contact below the calf, the horse will become inured to your signals when you want to apply the leg.

You should have even, consistent contact above your knee ie, through the thigh) not at your knee, and at the calf. Your weight whould fall into your calf, calf lie against the horse quietly, so that you are not carrying your weight in your stirrup. Your knee should be gently on the saddle or not at all, and not at a pinch. No ankle contact. You are forcing your leg into a position which doesn’t work, either for you nor for your riding.

[CalJumper]

Thank you for the quick replies!

I’m not gripping (that I’m aware of) with my ankle so much as just trying to keep it in contact with the horse.

M O’Connor, I will have to remember to make sure my toes stay slightly out. Now that you mention it, I’m wondering if I might be straightening my foot and pushing it forward slightly. I do work without stirrups regularly (helped tremendously with my seat and leg!) but 2 point continues to be semi-problematic. Getting my butt out behind me without leaning my upper body is challenging, someone once said it might be because men carry more wight in their upper body, making the balance trickier.

[CalJumper]

[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;7771769]
I also don’t want ankle contact during the ride. Heel contact for aids and signals, then that lower leg past the calf should be away from the horse. If you are constantly in contact below the calf, the horse will become inured to your signals when you want to apply the leg.

You should have even, consistent contact above your knee ie, through the thigh) not at your knee, and at the calf. Your weight whould fall into your calf, calf lie against the horse quietly, so that you are not carrying your weight in your stirrup. Your knee should be gently on the saddle or not at all, and not at a pinch. No ankle contact. You are forcing your leg into a position which doesn’t work, either for you nor for your riding.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I was basing the ankle contact on the “control button” that Bruce Davidson talks about. My trainer told me about the “button” when I was having issues keeping my leg still at the canter, and since it was something I could feel and visualize it helped me a lot. Maybe I’m just over thinking it now.

[M_O_Connor]

It shouldn’t actually require much thought. There are a LOT of books with pictures, and now there are many many examples available to watch on video, not only of riders in competition but also instructional modes (equestriancoach.com) and…don’t overlook your own trainer as a resource.

[Ambitious_Kate]

We’re not talking about gripping, its contact, periord. we’retalking about.

Just forget about your ankle!! You could be focusing on your thigh, on your seat bones, and on your calf. Put your heels down, somewhat, and pullllll - I said pulll, your lower leg under your hip.

Where your ankle lies is dependent as you noticed on your horse’s barrell. But really, forget it, You don’t USE your ankle against the horse, so forget it.

You can sweep your lower leg back, you can apply your heel, you can use your spurs, but think about it:

Your ankle should not be flexed or cocked out from your leg touching the horse. If it is, you are using an old style of bad leg.

Sit on your horse, drop you leg down so its straight from your hip. Pick up your stirrup, and you should find a straight line from shoulder to hip to ball of foot (in the stirrup). Basically, that is it.

In two point, your weight should be IN YOUR CALF (not shouting, just emphasizing) against your horse. No knee, still with your ball of your foot under your hip.

Take pictures. Scruitinize. Post them, for detail.

If your ankle is cocked in, you are doing it wrong. Make that leg straight against the horse, not cocked, if you get my drift.

[Ambitious_Kate]

If you don’t get it, spend a month or more in 2 point without stirrups. After that you will say - ankle? What ankle?

[PNWjumper]

So this thread got me thinking about this while riding 3 of mine yesterday. Actually, I have to ride one of mine without a girth right now, so I may have been a little distracted about the idea of survival while riding him in the brisk fall air, but I definitely thought about it with the other 2! :lol:

I’ve always heard and said that the rider should have even contact/pressure from the upper thigh through the knee (which, yes! should have contact, but should not, of course, be gripping as the only anchor point) and down the calf to the ankle. But I couldn’t picture whether my actual ankle touched the horse. So on the two horses I was able to use brainpower on:

My no-stirrups horse: She’s a little round-barreled and not very big (15.3), but I thought that perhaps because I ride her without stirrups my ankle would rest against her side. Nope. The contact with my leg stops just above the top of where a paddock boot would sit. As others commented, I’ll add heel/spur pressure while doing lateral work, but during the regular sitting trot, posting trot, and canter, my ankles were (stable and still, but) not resting on her sides as I envisioned. The primary pressure for posting, 2-pt, and even just sitting comes from my upper thighs down through just above my knees, and then my upper calf right below the knee, while the majority of my lower leg just rested on her sides for stability.

My upper level horse (with stirrups): He’s big (17h) and slab sided, and after riding my mare I was sure that my ankle would be resting against his side. But nope. The only way to create pressure from the ankle was to turn out my toe too far and destabilize my knee. And since this used to be my kryptonite, it definitely isn’t something I can do without risking slipping back into the abyss Again, with him I use my ankle/heel/spur when necessary, but it’s a momentary usage asking him to move his ribcage, not a constant pressure. With stirrups my leg usage remains the same with most of my pressure/grip coming from my upper thigh down through just above my knee and then the top of my calf just below the knee.

I agree that you may be over thinking things a bit. I can say from experience that riding every single day without stirrups was hands down the best thing I ever did for my riding. It took away issues with crookedness, leg position, and body position and I’m committed to continuing to ride at least one horse a day without stirrups for the foreseeable future. But in lieu of doing that, I would spend a lot of time in 2-point, standing straight up in the stirrups, and posting different patterns (up, up, down, for example) with a focus on even leg contact from upper thigh through calf. As long as you keep your heels down your ankle will take care of itself. Follow Ambitious Kate’s instructions for finding where your leg should lie, and then focus on that position while trotting and cantering.

Oh, adding that I totally agree with Ambitious Kate except for the 2-point comment where I think the majority of your weight should be in your upper legs with your calves simply resting against the horse’s sides (though certainly more “weight” in your calves than your ankle).

[woodhillsmanhattan]

Agree with above posters that you may be overthinking it. I would focus on even distribution of thigh, knee, calf. Worrying about ankle contact may cause you to draw up and shorten your leg, which would be undesirable.

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7773547]

I agree that you may be over thinking things a bit. I can say from experience that riding every single day without stirrups was hands down the best thing I ever did for my riding. It took away issues with crookedness, leg position, and body position and I’m committed to continuing to ride at least one horse a day without stirrups for the foreseeable future. But in lieu of doing that, I would spend a lot of time in 2-point, standing straight up in the stirrups, and posting different patterns (up, up, down, for example) with a focus on even leg contact from upper thigh through calf. [/QUOTE]

If you only have one horse to ride (like myself), I recommend at least 5 minutes a day no stirrups. I will occasionally do entire rides with no stirrups but rarely. I like to get the feeling without stirrups and then try to recreate that feeling with stirrups. If you are lucky to have more than one ride then do as PNW suggests and commit to riding one a day without stirrups :)! (although I would personally switch up which horse I do it on)

Don’t forget about your thigh. A lot of time people focus so much on the lower leg that they forget about the upper leg. My weakness is that I grip too much with my calf and my thigh is loose and hips don’t follow enough. Also, I was always taught that there should be contact with your knee (even contact of thigh, knee, and calf). However, you want the contact with your knee to be the inside of it (knee cap facing forward), not the top of your knee (knee cap facing inward towards the saddle). With my loose thighs and overcompensation to avoid gripping with my knee I often find my knee pointing away from the saddle, which also isn’t desirable! So don’t do what I do :lol:.

[CalJumper]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was over thinking it and too focused on the exercise which was meant to be a tool, typical me!

I rode 2 horses this morning, thought about what I read here, and was very conscious of my leg position without trying to force anything. One horse was slab sided and the other much rounder. During my warm up I stood in the stirrups, posted a bit, up 2 down 1, then dropped them for a few laps. In every case, my ankle didn’t touch without some contortion of my feet or legs. The contact ended at my lower calf, and felt much more natural.

Had a chat with my trainer, and she said the point of the the exercise she gave me was to be conscious of keeping my leg still, maintaining contact, and not bracing/putting too much weight on my stirrups. I have a terrible habit of getting lazy and using my stirrups as a crutch, causing me to lose contact and be loose with my leg.

I see WAY more no stirrups in my future. Thanks again to all.

[ModernShowJumper]

Relax your knee. Don’t grip the saddle with your knee.

[fordtraktor]

Hey CalJumper, thought of this post this morning when I saw a post by Denny Emerson on his Tamarack Hill site. Here is what he has to say about it:

One thing you CAN get rid of is that blasted swinging lower leg that won`t stay under you over a fence, to give you a secure base and foundation.

"Fifty years ago, when I was starting out, my leg position sucked, but now it doesn`t in these 2014 pictures, riding 3 offspring by Beaulieus Coolman.

Three things—

1. Shorten your stirrups. And I mean SHORTEN them.
2. Place your LOWER LEG, by your ankle bone/Achilles tendon ON the horse, just behind the girth, and leave it there, with your knee “soft” and your heels DOWN.
3. Let your upper body come forward as a “byproduct” of your hips coming back-----Don`t push on the stirrup and bring your crotch forward----let the horse come UP to you, not you go DOWN at the horse.

Look up, smile at the camera, and think how amazing you are—hahahahaha"

Now you need to look at his pics too, because if you do you can see his ankle itself isn’t on the horse, it stops at that Achilles area and it is the back part of inside leg/lower calf/Achilles that should be on the horse with the toe slightly rotated out at a 45 degree angle. If you think of that as “ankle area” as Denny does or “lower calf” either one, it’s fine, but it’s not the ankle bone as you will see from his pics. But the stability of having the lower leg through the lower calf/Achilles on the horse with the heel low/absorbing and the knee soft is what is providing that anchor and the beautiful stability and consistency in his pictures. IMO, anyway. If you aren’t on his facebook feed, you should add it, very useful even for the non-eventer.

[RugBug]

Agree with others. Ankle should not be in contact with the horse. Soft contact should be through the upper thigh, knee and about midway down the calf. I suppose if you are short, riding a very round horse, you may have contact in the ankle area, but it is not ideal.