Another Confirmation Question - QH Built Down Hill

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=rcloisonne;7915341]
Just google pictures of what’s winning in the top AQHA halter horse venues. Almost all of them are downhill, have very upright pasterns, posty hocks and small, pony sized feet on 1,500# bodies. While I’ve seen QH’s with much better confo than these halter “winners”, it’s hard to find one that’s not downhill and has adequate sized hooves.

I don’t mean to knock QH fans in general but IMO, more than a few are as blind to what good equine conformation is as they are in seeing their western pleasure show winners as “great movers”. Maybe they were - before the training required made them look like they’re doing the navicular shufffle.[/QUOTE]

First, lets understand the fact that halter, esp at upper end, has become as specialized as any other event, and unfortunately, no longer has any relationship to athletic potential, any more than a weight builder is an example of a human athlete.
I don’t agree with the fact, but have come to accept it, after complaining about halter horses to a reining trainer that i was taking a clinic with
His response was, that if I, as a performance person, bred like to like and not to a halter horse, then the halter industry had no impact on me, and that halter people had to the right to breed what they wanted, same as anyone else, even if that resulted in a ‘lead um, and feed um’
As for pleasure bred horses and good movement, I won’t even comment on your ignorant comment, except to say that I have ridden both working bred stock horses and pleasure bred horses, thus to state that the well bred pleasure horses aren’t exceptional movers, is plain contrary tot he fact

Now, back to the entire subject of this post. Yes, downhill conformation is a fault, but then are many other conformation deviations, and I see plenty of those in other breeds, that would inhibit the kind of athletic ability I and many others desire
Stock horses have a wide range of disciplines that they compete in, not only at the breed level, but also on the top open venues. That requires not only a range in body type, but in proven ability in that event. It is a fact that a performance horse is first selected by proven ability, and at times that causes other desirable traits to be left behind to some degree, such as perfect form to function conformation
Nice to have both in the same package, but ability and heart often trump perfect conformation
I see many , many ads of English horses ridden with a hollow back-just pick up an issue of Gaitpost.
A reining stop requires a great deal of collection.
If you want the suspension of a warmblood then buy a warmblood
Some of us want the handy athletic ability of a stock horse. While there are a few stock horses that have done very well in open cross country, jumping and dressage, I know of not one warmblood that has done anything in reining or working cowhorse, and those events are open to all breeds also.
If you don’t like the conformation of AQHA and other stock horses, that have proven their ability in events that they were bred for, then don’t buy one.
Very simple.
I have ridden my Applaoosas in as about tough as country that there is, and they are sane, sensible, able to put in a full day of mountain riding, on trails recreational riders don’t even venture on. My husband is a trophy hunter, including BigHorn sheep
I have seen some real idiot horses out there, that can hardly be ridden beyond the camp ground, and that I would not dream of riding on a tricky trail
I am not defending downhill build, and my horses are not built downhill, but am tired of people knocking stock horses, totally in disregard to their proven ability.

[Beverley]

The divergence between halter and performance is not new. I showed a horse for a friend in the late 60s, he was an AQHA champion in halter and she and I did get some western pleasure placings on him, but it was like riding a mixmaster.

Back in the day, though, there was a bit more variety in the halter classes, because you had to show in halter to qualify for the all around. I managed placings and wins with good performance horses whose conformation reflected function, though.

[PeteyPie]

What I find interesting about this discussion is that “Correct Conformation” is considered an absolute standard. The reality is that it is not scientific at all. Ideas and ideals of good conformation have been developed by horsemen throughout the centuries but they are based on common sense or what seems to be logical, or, what is attractive.

A few decades ago I read an article in a horse magazine about a study done on Thoroughbred race horses and length of cannon bone. The study was challenging the common ideal of short cannon bones relative to the upper leg. I know I’m not being precise, but it has been awhile since I read this article. Anyway, the study showed that by far the more successful horses had cannon bones which were longer than average or at least, longer than desired for good conformation.

The point is that horse experts have made this decision that short cannon bones and an uphill build and a certain proportion of build is ideal. These decisions and standards just may not be correct; they may not be correct for performance and they may not be correct for long-term soundness. We use anecdotal evidence to support our ideas, but that is just not scientific.

Just from an evolutionary standpoint, it would seem that a wild equine, like a zebra, would have the best conformation for long-term soundness. That is, soundness which would endure throughout the animal’s reproductive life, which is quite long in horses. Of course a zebra is not as fast as a Thoroughbred nor as elegant as a Warmblood or Arabian, but I just don’t think it is logical to assume that say, short upright pasterns or a downhill build contribute to unsoundness:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D94nBfguAMU/TwUkwfONClI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/Zi5j19QZudQ/s1600/zebra-zebra.jpg
http://www.nortexinfo.net/BarredMRanch/images/Zrside.jpg
I am NOT saying that a zebra’s conformation is ideal for performance. A zebra can’t outrun a Thoroughbred and it probably can’t outjump a Warmblood. I am just talking about long-term soundness. And zebras don’t carry weight on their backs so it is not a fair comparison, just a thought, which is admittedly, no more scientific than the current thinking on horse build. My point is that we have ideas not based on scientific studies or even relationship studies. Maybe someone has done this type of analysis and it has been ignored.

As far as performance goes, some of the very most influential Thoroughbreds have been downhill yet have been successful athletes and sires.
Northern Dancer:
http://horseracinghalloffame.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Northern-Dancer-yearling-1962.jpeg
Storm Cat:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GLW4GnC_dzY/Sd2FImhoX1I/AAAAAAAACBI/EQDVswKFc1c/s400/StormCat.gif

There are more but I have run out of steam.

[Beverley]

Indeed, horses haven’t read the data and research on conformation, so they don’t necessarily know they are or aren’t supposed to be ‘built’ or ‘bred’ to do a particular thing. For me, that’s part of the fun!

[Willesdon]

From a perspective of 50 years of horses in many different countries, IMO working horses that last generally have a balanced conformation. That is regardless of breed or occupation. Yes, there is normal variation within any population but beware fashions that exaggerate particular features within a breed. Leg at each corner, head and neck proportional to body… stick to the tried and tested basics.

[KIloBright]

We also have to remember that for the most part, horses today are luxuries and recreational horses-not many are asked to work all day, day in and day out.
There are some exceptions of course, such as working ranches (and guess what they ride, because the stock horse conformation fits the bill! )
Cuba certainly has horses being used in the fields and for daily transportation
The Omish, as in southern Ontario, where I grew up, still run on horse power
We also don’t ride horses into war any longer, thus a working purpose of a Sport horse has also become both redundant and not tested, far as working hard, daily and staying sound
Outfitters still use horses daily in the mountains, and guess what some of their main requirements are?
Good bone, good feet and a sensible mind
Most horses today, including warmbloods are bred for specific events, competitions etc, with practical application not considered.
How many warmbloods are ridden on trails? Heck, I know of many that can’t be ridden outside of an arena
THus, each of us chooses horses that do what we want to do with them
I’ll stick with a stock horse when it comes to working cattle and trail riding
I also show those stock horses in the events that I like, and I sure as heck don’t need someone that has never taken a cow down a fence, or packed out an elk, tell me what is wrong in my breed of choice.
Pretty is as pretty does!
Yes, you want balanced conformation, and having taken part in a government evaluation program, I am very aware of what constitutes 'good conformation, and athletic build goes way beyond up hill conformation, because I can take apart many other breeds that have traits that might limit their athletic ability
Long backs, short croup and hip , hocks high off of the ground, front end heavy, muscles that don’t tie into the gaskin well, etc, ect.

[Shermy]

I just saw this thread, thought I would add my experience.

Two years ago, I bought an almost 4 yr old, Nu King Chex. When I got him he was a little downhill, not bad, as he has grown, he keeps going back and forth. He was pretty level for a little while, now he is almost an inch downhill. It will be interesting what he ends up like, he is almost 6 now.

I did have trouble finding saddle that fit him and/or didn’t make me feel like I was pitched forward.

I found a Steele saddle that sits me way back, fits him really well, so I think we have that figured out.

As far as how he moves, he is very floaty, light and agile. I have a older Uphill paint that is more flat kneed, just moves different, but if I was to say, HE moves more heavy than the my new horse.

So, while visually now, my new one is downhill by @ inch, but you cant tell in how he moves at all.

He may even up, may not. He still has young look to him, hasn,t started to fill out or look mature yet.

So, it may be more than just looking at one aspect of how they are put together. The rest of my guy is put together VERY nicely. So, mayb it cancels out the downhill negatives.

[mvp]

I can’t believe any of you guys believes downhill conformation has a biomechanics advantage for any of the tasks we give horses, or their soundness.

I agree with aktill that those pictures of a cutting horse quite low in front (and squatting behind, too) doesn’t mean a low front end helps him get there. On the contrary, that’s a moment in time. In the next instant, he’ll have to pick up that front end and move it over to turn with the cow. He really needs his hind end (and core) for that hard work.

But I don’t get this:

[QUOTE=aktill;7913628]
QH’s tend to have a downhill build because the “Quarter” part of the name should be a reminder that they’re racehorses.

In a racehorse, a slight downhill build means that they’re less likely to “catch air” with their front end (which slows down their gallop). The more they convert energy into forward motion rather than upward motion (suspension), the quicker they’re likely to be. QH’s have a reputation for having less suspension than warmbloods…wonder why? Go here for the answer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uQOchrK7NA[/QUOTE]

If that were true, why wouldn’t TBs be religiously downhill? After all, rigorous selective breeding for one job has been going on much longer in TBs than in QH horses.

IMO, the downhill thing came from halter folks trying to make the horse’s hind end look larger. Another way to do that, of course, is that standard 3/4 show with the horse facing away from the camera. Yeah, he looks downhill there.

In short, anyone who wants a horse to use that strong hind end that God and evolution gave him also needs the horse to engage his core so as to lift up this front end. Usually, that means raising his rib cage between his scapulae. But sometimes-- even in that cutting horse that needs to make a 90+ degree turn in one stride-- he’s got to pick up his shoulders and all, too. IMO, that biomechanics job is a constant one and not benefited by downhill conformation.

[OveroHunter]

I am not a fan of butt high horses and see it as a conformation flaw. That being said, I own two of them and they’re great horses :lol:

I think it’s all about what you want to do with them. For western, a slightly downhill horse shouldn’t be a big deal. My gelding is at least an inch higher on the butt (maybe slightly more :eek: ), but he is great for trail riding, cow events, and low level eventing (he did pony club) and hunter/jumpers. Unfortunately, I do hunters and he just doesn’t have the build/athleticism to go higher than 3’ (which he honestly barely scrapes himself over). However, he’s such a great all arounder and he’s so safe and trustworthy, that he’s still worth his weight in gold.

My mare, who is showing successfully in hunters, is starting to even out, but might be a tick higher in the back end. She has no trouble getting herself over the jumps and has the cutest knees to her eyeballs jump. Her only issue is that she doesn’t have the build for great movement. She’s not a bad mover by any means, but as we have moved up in the hunter world, she consistently places high over fences and lower in the hack

So it’s all what you want to do with them. I wouldn’t buy a significantly down hill horse for h/j or dressage, but if the horse is good at what he does and he does what you want to do, then go for it!

ETA: breeding on my guys might be useful. They’re both registered APHA. My gelding is HYPP N/N halter bred so he has the huge chest, giant barrel, large hip, and tiny feet. My mare is half TB half WP performance bred. Her TB dam was a very successful hunter back in her day in the A shows. I figure she got her great jump from her dam and her movement from her sire. She’ll get down and jog with the best of them… Which really ticks off my trainer when I try to pull that stunt when she asks for a sitting trot :lol: