Another gorgeous and cheap French stallion

[vineyridge]

@beowulf

I think we have stallions that have the type, movement, and substance that WB breeders could use… they just are not accessible to WB breeders because their stud fees cost as much as a second home… And the stallions that could benefit WB breeding, sometimes are not marketed to WBs because there is no money in it. I can’t say whether they would catalyze the HOL breed the way Ladykiller did, he was truly an exceptional horse that came along at the right time, when the registry was in some sore need of blood. He is and was positively irreplaceable.

I am not saying that you don’t know what you are talking about - I think you do… but I see a lot of high quality TBs, that consistently come from the same sires or same families, and these TBs are ending up in UL homes.

The TB as a whole has changed since Ladykiller, naturally… that’s the way progress works – but I have seen better quality TBs in the last ten years than I saw before that. I think that is largely in part because a few very commercial stallions have infiltrated the TB genepool – and those stallions were of very good quality sportwise. It just so happened that they were also incredible racers (which, sometimes, is not such a separate quality). I do think that modern dirt racing has transformed the TB further from the WB ideal – but – there are still some modern dirt sires that are consistently producing TBs that were not bred for sport, that are showing up in the top level of sports. A few of those dirt sires are shown in the image in the post above ^

That is Ladykiller… and… by today’s standards, people would say he is long as a bus and downhill with a poor throatlatch connection and long loin… it is a good thing that those in the know knew otherwise.

There are modern dirt racers that come very close phenotypically to Ladykiller still.

For the record, while we sometimes disagree, I do always value your insights and input into the forum Viney. I always learn something.

The picture is of Phalaris, not Ladykiller. I posted a photo of Ladykiller above.

[beowulf]

@JB

It used to be that we judged a horse as up/dowhill/level by wither to croup, and/or elbow to stifle. But that is a measurement that has little to do with how the horse moves.

Judy Wardrope spent a lot of time evaluating horses in motion, and all that research showed there is much more to up/downhill.

The “big 3” are much more important than withers/croup/stifle/elbow.
[LIST=1]

Pillar of support - the front legs in relationship to the withers. Draw a line vertically through the forearm crease. The farther in front of the withers, the better, in terms of how light the front end is. It should go down right at the back of the heel, meaning there is a good foot under the leg for support.

LS gap - lumbosacral gap, the dip (gap) between the last thoracic vertebra and the lumbosacral joint, and its relationship with the point of the hip. They should be pretty much in a vertical line. The farther back that LS gap is, the less ability the horse has to collect and push and sit, so not very good at transferring power/energy forward.

Neck emergence - the lower neck need to emerge above the point of the shoulder, but not too far. [/LIST]

A horse can be butt-high and still be functionally uphill, but just not as functionally uphill as the same horse who isn’t butt-high. Butt high is not equivalent to downhill.

A horse can be wither-high and be very functionally downhill.

Higher or lower stifle has more impact on whether he’s a better Jumper or Dressage horse. Higher stifles are better for jumping as it helps with lifting the front end, and lower is better for Dressage or other forward work as it helps with a longer stride.

This is how I assess a horse as uphill or downhill - but, after I have seen them move. The parts make up the whole and independently mean very little. There are many WB + TB stallions that if you only looked at a picture of them, you would think were downhill – but they move and jump very uphill.

I think there is a lot more that goes into a horse than what their conformation picture can possibly represent… and that goes for the TB sires like Pulpit or AP Indy, who look downhill as anything, but when you see them move the entire picture changes. Both of these stallions are uphill movers and pass that on. Both of these stallions have FEI get… in a sport they are not even bred for.

Now as far as the LS gap - the ideal is very hard to find in WB stallions, too. Check out the anatomy of the stallions in this lineup:
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Sire%20Rankings.aspx

I think it’s important to familiarize yourself with the conformation of our top WB stallions… because they come in so many different shapes and sizes, and some of them with what conformation purists would say are flaws. In spite of that they are at the top of the sport.

[allanglos]

@beowulf

Klairon as a whole seems to be a sire of broodmares as well; he is more often found in the US via the damline. He is not necessarily rare in US pedigrees from what I have seen. However, he is rare showing up tail male, like you said – if we see him at all it is through Luthier or Lorenzaccio - if we’re lucky, Ahonoora or Indian Ridge.

I just sold a mare yesterday that was Klairon tail male, through Lorenzaccio. Pedigree Query lists 5 sons by the same sire out there. She was bred in Colorado. https://www.pedigreequery.com/my+peaches+n+cream

I also did some line drawing on my 3 year old Thoroughbred colt just to see how he compared. He is still growing and butt high, so there is potential.

[JB]

AP Indy is functionally uphill, despite being butt-high. His 'big 3" are all as they should be.

Contendro LS gap is right on top of his point of hip. So is Jazz, Weltmeyer (maybe a smidge back), and the other few I looked up confo pics of. Breed doesn’t matter . Function is function. Yes, there is an ideal, but that doesn’t mean minor variances aren’t common and normal, nor does it mean there aren’t some competing at high levels despite some pretty major flaws. But I don’t think at all you’re going to find a top performance horse, who is old enough, who has any of these 3 that are just horrid.

BUT, you can’t look at just 1 part and say it doesn’t work. Having the LS gap slightly behind the point of hip isn’t a big deal on its own. It’s a bigger deal the farther off the other areas are. A less ideal LS gap is going to be a bigger hindrance to a horse who has a shallow croup and short weakly muscled gaskin, while the most ideal gap isn’t going to help the horse whose pillar of support is right under his withers with a neck that emerges below the point of shoulder.

Wardrope has evaluated a LOT of horses, of all discplines, from QHs to TBs to WBs, from Eventing to Jumpers to Dressage. Horses are horses. Every horse pictured here (in confo stance) had very good to excellent Big 3.

[ladyj79]

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:10281049}[/ATTACH] Ladykiller

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:10281050}[/ATTACH] Landgraf

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:10281051}[/ATTACH] Lord

[ladyj79]

@beowulf

I think it’s important to familiarize yourself with the conformation of our top WB stallions… because they come in so many different shapes and sizes, and some of them with what conformation purists would say are flaws. In spite of that they are at the top of the sport.

Yes, true, but it’s also to me so interesting to look at the pedigrees at the top of the WBSFH rankings these days, because Landgraf, who was the sire of the century, is not holding the same kind of place in the pedigree of those top stallions that he once did, but the C lines of Holsteiner, and Corde and Ibrahim still shine through. It’s especially interesting to me in looking at the confo pics of Ladykiller and Landgraf, because to my eye, Landgraf is so, so similar to Ladykiller, but heavier, which speaks to me both to his success as a sire in the last century, but also to his descendants being lower in the rankings internationally, despite being HUGELY prolific and really, very very rideable.

blah blah blah, great conversation topic though! sorry to ramble!

[beowulf]

@ladyj79

Yes, true, but it’s also to me so interesting to look at the pedigrees at the top of the WBSFH rankings these days, because Landgraf, who was the sire of the century, is not holding the same kind of place in the pedigree of those top stallions that he once did, but the C lines of Holsteiner, and Corde and Ibrahim still shine through. It’s especially interesting to me in looking at the confo pics of Ladykiller and Landgraf, because to my eye, Landgraf is so, so similar to Ladykiller, but heavier, which speaks to me both to his success as a sire in the last century, but also to his descendants being lower in the rankings internationally, despite being HUGELY prolific and really, very very rideable.

blah blah blah, great conversation topic though! sorry to ramble!

Don’t be sorry to ramble, I kind of was the one that took it off the rails… I love Landgraf… but I think it’s just a sign of the times and how they are changing. The sport (SJ) is so different now from when it was when Landgraf hit the ground. different horses for different courses.

I do really like so many of the C lined stallions, too - they definitely are dominating the sport… but the gap in conformation between them is so incredibly different. Moreso, I think, than Landgraf/Ladykiller and their sons - I agree with you because I thought that line in particular was incredibly potent.

@JB, check out the SJ stallions. Tons of variations… and… several radical departures from what conformation purists say is “ideal”.

[JB]

@beowulf

@JB, check out the SJ stallions. Tons of variations… and… several radical departures from what conformation purists say is “ideal”.

Going off the 2018 SJ stallion list,a few of which can’t find confo pics of: [LIST=1]

Chacco Blue - can't find confo pic

Diamont de Semilly - excellent Big 3.

For Pleasure - excellent Big 3

Cornet Obolensky - not quite as excellent though still correct enough - his bottom neck tie in is borderline low, and his pillar of support is adequate - not as lovely as the 2 above, but still quite adequate enough. It's not bad, not not fantastic, and between the 2 is a whole range of correct

Casall - can't find a confo pic

Kashmir Van't Schuttershof - if he's the same as Kasmir van het Schuttershof, then still excellent Big 3. He's the lightest/leanest of them all so far

Kannan - 2 of the 3 are excellent, his pillar of support is good, just not as out in front as most of the others.

Baloubet du Roet - despite his general gangliness, his Big 3 are still good to excellent

Balou du Roet - excellent all around

Berlin - same, all excellent. [/LIST] Yes, they are all different-looking horses. More and less sloped shoulders, more and less shoulder angle, longer and shorter scapulas and humeruses, some flatter croups than others (ie Berlin is flatter than Balou), some necks that come out a bit higher than others, longer/shorter backs, some straighter hind ends, etc. but none of those things are extreme - they couldn't be, or these guys would have trouble getting out of their own way, or remain sound for long doing so at this level.

But I don’t see any radical departures, though perhaps I’m not understanding what a “conformation purist” says is ideal. All of those horses have been and produced successfully because the functional aspects of their conformation are within a well-defined range.

Neck placement (regardless of high or low) has a fairly narrow range of emergence at the bottom, the LS gap has a pretty narrow range of what still allows transmission of energy and support of weight, and the pillar of support has the biggest range between adequate and amazing (look at Ladykiller’s, it really can’t get much more forward than that, compared to, say, Cornet Obolensky who is closer to the other end of the range). All these guys have high stifles to help get the front end off the ground.

[vineyridge]

Here is the Horse Magazine write up of Cottage Son who only stood in Holstein from 1960-1964. He’s the sire line for Capitol I, probably the most successful sire in Holsteiner history.
[URL=“https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/10/cottage-son/”]https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2014/10/cottage-son/

And just for the heck of it, here’s The Horse Magazine’s profile of Cor de Bryere:
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/cor-de-la-bryere/

[EventerAJ]

Just want to say I’m enjoying this discussion, particularly Beowulf. I completely agree that the current trend of commercial TB pedigrees is a bright future for producing a sport horse phenotype. The sheer number of AP Indy, El Prado, and Tiznow bloodlines at stud is creating a huge pool of future prospects, particularly the cheaper state-bred trickle downs that will be within reach of sport horse homes.

https://eventingconnect.today/2018/09/04/what-is-the-future-of-the-thoroughbred-sport-horse-looking-like/

[vineyridge]

@OTTB FTW

He stood in Florida for a while I believe. I’ve seen a few offspring, and have a grandaughter that is an incredible mover and jumper. I know students of Denny’s had a couple of his, but don’t know how his progeny have done in eventing. Not in the breeding scene. (yet

Based on some research I did several years ago, With Approval was by far the best Caro son for sport horses.

[va2txrider]

@OTTB FTW

With Approval grand-daughter - (these pics in the snow were first that I found, and I have to go to work lol! She jumps the tops of the standards easily and is so light on her front feet its as if they don’t touch the ground on the flat)

Someone probably knows if this line did anything in eventing. I don’t know actually.

I just posted because I think With Approval was a nice option when in the US.

https://prntscr.com/loopox
https://prntscr.com/loopbx
https://prntscr.com/loopj0
This one is for Beowulf to breed along with my Stonesider mare. ( hee hee
(I jest but you actually could…)

OTTB FTW your mare is lovely!

[sixpoundfarm]

Another image of Ladykiller, not nearly as complimentary as the ones normally posted.

[JB]

He’s still lovely there! Is he older in that picture? He still shows how he was functionally a very, very athletic horse

[OTTB_FTW]

@vineyridge

Based on some research I did several years ago, With Approval was by far the best Caro son for sport horses.

Ahhh thank you for the information Viney!

[Elles]

You used to have such GORGEOUS showjumping Thoroughbreds in the past :love-struck::love-struck::
https://youtu.be/gACSCLq5sZ0
How does this guy Nownownow look? http://www.hollyhillfarm.net/offer/breeding-farm/

[anon6923113]

^ followed that link and I actually am super curious about Amenecer de oro. Can’t find a confirmation picture of him though.