Another group forms to stop slaughter!

[cutter99]

@ASB_Stars

I came here to post an article on groups that are anti-slaughter. I do not owe you anything. The idea that you deign to say that I look “worse” is fine. The idea that you are the arbiter of tone is sadly laughable.

Do you seriously believe that I think that the idea of raising horses for slaughter is anything but vile? I must not be clear enough for you.

If you would care to show an opposing opinion, complete with facts, to the article that started this thread, have at it. However, honestly, you aren’t going to prove anything to me.

Nice attempt at deflection, but it won’t cut it with this group!

Honestly, it is not my job to prove anything to you. It was yours to support your post with facts.

You have been anything but informative, nor could present a persuasive argument to change anyone’s minds. Didn’t you state up thread that you considered this to be a “teaching moment”?
We are still waiting for the teaching to begin!

In fact, you went out of your way to insult American farmers.

Anywho, off to participate in offensive American farming practices, because even though it is a holiday weekend, we still farm daily!

[ASB_Stars]

Well, this is interesting!

Anti-cow slaughter Bill passed in Karnataka

[KBC]

@cutter99

Didn’t you state up thread that you considered this to be a “teaching moment”?
We are still waiting for the teaching to begin!

Keep waiting, I fear it’s not going to happen.

Horses being carted over the borders for slaughter is a horrible thing, and I support the ending of that. What terrifies me is the alternative, the pipe line exists because of a need to dispose of horses, if we turn off that outlet what is going to happen?

What happens to those who sadly end up in the pipeline, I guess they all live happily ever after, cared for by angels in human form, tending to all their needs…yeah not going to happen.

They are going to get dumped, abandoned, or get in the hands of hoarders who think they are helping, but in fact are starving their victims. This is such a nightmare thought, this is why I support the access to better regulated, smaller plants, to provide that service.

[ASB_Stars]

This one, too. Not about horses, but still informative.

At Slaughter

[KBC]

Are not cattle considered a holy animal by Hindus? They are mainly vegetarian. Not sure what this has to do with horses in America.

[ASB_Stars]

@cutter99

Didn’t you state up thread that you considered this to be a “teaching moment”?
We are still waiting for the teaching to begin!

Not when people do not want to learn. Here’s the thing; you cannot prove that equine slaughter is humane, in fact, many folks on here have pointed out the flaws in the system that is the pipeline. You think that you can dictate to me that I should come up with a humane system, or one that is acceptable to me. I can’t, because I don’t believe that equine slaughter should exist. That makes rising to your bait kind of silly.

[KBC]

@ASB_Stars

You think that you can dictate to me that I should come up with a humane system, or one that is acceptable to me. I can’t, because I don’t believe that equine slaughter should exist.

Jesus Christ in a cracker, no one is asking you to design a better or humane slaughter system, we get that there is not a system in the world that would make it acceptable for you. I m just not sure what the biggest stumbling block is for you, every horse ends up dead, no lives are saved by banning slaughter, but the longer term quality of many would be affected.

What we are interested in is your idea to make sure suggested solution, making breeders responsible for the lives the create, even an outline plan, something.

Also what do we do with the extra horses in the country because of any ban in export.

[KBC]

@ASB_Stars

1,000,000 chickens, 14,000 pigs, and 4,000 cows

Mmm, and I have some of each in my freezer…

[Bluey]

@ASB_Stars

Not when people do not want to learn. Here’s the thing; you cannot prove that equine slaughter is humane, in fact, many folks on here have pointed out the flaws in the system that is the pipeline. You think that you can dictate to me that I should come up with a humane system, or one that is acceptable to me. I can’t, because I don’t believe that equine slaughter should exist. That makes rising to your bait kind of silly.

I think that is backwards thinking.
In reality, we have a questionable situation now BECAUSE of the drives to ban slaughter, that stopped slaughter in the US by taking inspectors out of the plants.
Without inspectors, plants could not function, so they closed.

It is animal rights extremists after banning ALL uses of animals, including our uses of horses, remember, that caused this situation, not if slaughter can be managed properly, which it surely can and does in other places just fine.

[cutter99]

@ASB_Stars

@cutter99

Didn’t you state up thread that you considered this to be a “teaching moment”?
We are still waiting for the teaching to begin!

Not when people do not want to learn. Here’s the thing; you cannot prove that equine slaughter is humane, in fact, many folks on here have pointed out the flaws in the system that is the pipeline. You think that you can dictate to me that I should come up with a humane system, or one that is acceptable to me. I can’t, because I don’t believe that equine slaughter should exist. That makes rising to your bait kind of silly.

Actually no, it makes YOU kinda silly!

No one has dictated that you do anything!

I didn’t come here and hurl insults at you.

I didn’t come here talking about issues without facts to back up my perspective.

I didn’t come here and say that something is impossible, when it is being done in other countries.

I didn’t come here to demean your way of life, which I know nothing about, as you know nothing about mine!

That was you!

[skydy]

@McGurk

How can the current situation be profitable when the animals are shipped long distances? If we take the the long distance shipping out of the equation, surely that money can be spent on improving the conditions at the slaughterhouse and still leave room for profit.

The people buying and transporting horses for slaughter are not necessarily the owners of the abattoir. Often, kill buyers buy them, arrange their transport and sell them to the abattoir that processes them and sells the meat. The outlawing of horse slaughter in the U.S. has resulted in our having no control over the conditions in which horses are slaughtered.

@McGurk

I live in a part of the world where both farming and hunting are big; and I have a choice of three or four custom meat processors within an hour’s drive. When we raised our own grass fed beef, we hauled them to a custom slaughterhouse, I have a friend who does the same with pigs. Conditions in these plants are exemplary ; they are freaking immaculate. There are not big pens of waiting animals or assembly line type conditions as we’ve seen the horrible videos of in big commercial plants. You actually have to make an appointment to deliver your animals. They are unloaded, given a chance to settle, and then humanely dispatched. Yes, we have been there when it is done. There’s no panic, the animal isn’t afraid, it’s just another day in the life and then it’s over. It is nothing like what is in the anti-slaugher propaganda.

@McGurk

Why can’t that work for unwanted horses?

Because, unlike pigs and cattle, horses are not present in the food supply in the U.S. The meat has to be exported, which is costly and very regulated.

What would a boutique slaughterhouse do with the remains of the horses?

It’s a huge problem and I don’t have the answers.

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

I’m leaning towards this poster being a 1) Vegan and 2) a PETA supporter. the types of responses are right in line with that of an “Animal RIGHTS” person instead of an “Animal WELFARE” person.

Usually I don’t waste my time with these types because there is no amount of sense that could be spoken that could fix this type of mentality.

So lets start here: No one wants to see horses slaughtered. No one is talking about this subject like it is a happy one. The thoroughbred industry breeds over 20,000 foals a year. I wont even get started on the QH industry. Thoroughbreds purpose as racehorses is pretty short lived. usually by 4-6 years of age they need to find new careers. the good ones move on to breeding establishments but the vast majority don’t make that cut. I don’t know about you, but I have been to the track numerous times outside of the racing genre to look at horses for sport. And I am not insinuating that I was there to view one horse. I went through all of the barns that had something to show. And if you have done this you will find that at many of the lower end tracks; the horses that are available have issues. Soundness, previous injuries, arthritis, …I could go on. The bottom line is they can provide no service to their connections in the racing world anymore. You will still come across the ones whom are too slow and just can’t compete and their ownership would rather see the horse move on sound and in good health. But until you are standing on the backside watching a trainer hand you a leadrope to a seriously unsound horse begging you to take it away for free; you don’t really have a dog in the fight.

the thought of sending horses to slaughter breaks my heart. I have rescued many from that fate and given them a new lease on life. But the slaughter pipeline never went away when they shut down the plants in the US, no, the process just got my horrifying for those on that road. if owners of horses are unwilling to euthanize a horse and take responsibility for that then we have this reoccurring cycle of the unwanted who’s numbers are growing every year. Is it the responsibility of the racehorse trainer/owner or show horse owner or Rancher to euthanize their elderly or unsound instead of handing them off for pennies to the unknown only to end up in a bad spot suddeny? Yes it is?
But no one in the circle of horse ownership wants to have that conversation or take responsibility for those actions. it’s easier to load the live horse on the trailer to what seems like a “great home” and never look back

@ASB_Stars has been a member here for about 20 years. Whether you disagree with their opinion or not, you would do well to hold off on the condescending attitude and judgemental posting.

If you feel the need to call someone out in such an ugly manner, at least do a little research about them before you refer to them as “these types”.

[skydy]

@snaffle1987

I don’t know about you, but I have been to the track numerous times outside of the racing genre to look at horses for sport. And I am not insinuating that I was there to view one horse. I went through all of the barns that had something to show. And if you have done this you will find that at many of the lower end tracks; the horses that are available have issues. Soundness, previous injuries, arthritis, …I could go on. The bottom line is they can provide no service to their connections in the racing world anymore. You will still come across the ones whom are too slow and just can’t compete and their ownership would rather see the horse move on sound and in good health. But until you are standing on the backside watching a trainer hand you a leadrope to a seriously unsound horse begging you to take it away for free; you don’t really have a dog in this fight.

So, no one who hasn’t been looking at “lower end tracks” for cheap horses, is supposed to have an opinion about the issues regarding horse slaughter?

[McGurk]

@skydy,

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

When the US slaughterhouses were open and had inspectors funded, what happened to the horse meat? I’m assuming it was exported, and I’m also assuming that it was profitable or it wouldn’t have happened.

@ASB_Stars,

Here’s where I struggle with your argument: In your mind, what is the difference between euthanasia and slaughter? Are they both morally objectionable, or is just slaughter objectionable? And is slaughter objectionable in and of itself, or because the profit motive leads to abuse/inhumane conditions?

And finally, what’s your vision for a world where slaughter is outlawed? Including shipping horses over the border? First of all, what do we do with all the unwanted horses that there aren’t homes for? Starting with the 50,000 horses in BLM holding pens - even the most cock-eyed optimist has to agree that there are not homes for them all, and the ones still running free continue to breed. In this post slaughter world, what happens to a OTTB gelding claimer with a low bow and a poor prognosis for soundness?

You say you want to make breeders responsible for the horse they breed for their lifetimes - even if that were possible, how would that play out? You’d eliminate a majority of hobby breeders, for sure, but what is the long time result of this policy? Fewer breeders means athletic, desirable, purpose breed horses will skyrocket in price. What will happen to the market for low to mid price horses? Where will I get I nice local horse to trail ride, foxhunt and take a few lessons on?

I am not sure this is the way to eliminate horses suffering; the unintended consequences of this policy might cause more suffering than the initial problem.

[skydy]

From 2013;

EU bans US horse meat

[skydy]

It’s Wikipedia, but it does give a breakdown of the attitude toward consuming horse meat, by country.

Horse meat

ETA Commas skydy, commas…

[smoofox]

My comments in blue.

@cutter99

@ASB_Stars

Oh, please. You have acknowledged that you sell animals for slaughter.

So how am I supposed to take this quote?

I would never send a horse to the track. But, I am not here advocating the closure of all tracks.

Sure you are - you have suggested as much. Horses die every day that have never been near a race track or bred to race. The vast majority of horses choking the slaughterhouses are QHs.

I could argue that life on the track is a very unnatural way for horses to live. For the record, I was licensed on tracks in NY, PA, MD, NJ and DE as a vendor, and spent more than enough time backside. I have seen the way horses live there.

And I have worked on the backside and on breeding farms - so I guess you would say I was abusing horses? NO. Different trainers and different barns have different methods. Horses even get sent back to the farm for some R&R and turnout - unlike many show horses.

The life of some show horses is worse. No turnout - EVER. One cannot risk an unsightly scratch or nick or a pulled shoe. I had a close friend who worked for a cutting horse and reined cow horse trainer down the road from the TB farm I was working on at the time. People complain about 2 year olds racing on the track… but seem to overlook 2 year olds loping in endless, mind-numbing circles in deep footing, constantly nagged at to drop their heads… round and round and round. Far smaller than TBs and carrying some guys who weighed a helluva lot more than an exercise rider or jockey on them. Well - to be fair - no matter how old a horse was, the monotonous loping was constant and the mainstay of their training and conditioning program. The horses did it in a very robotic way… eyes staring at nothing.

Then we come to the Saddlebred show barn a few roads over. BNT who had horses shipped in to him from all over North America. The ONLY time they were ever out of their stalls was when they were being ridden or driven. No turnout. As opposed to the quieter cutting horses, the ASBs were a bundle of nerves - all the time. Barn help would walk down the aisle and run the broom or rake handles along the bars at the front of the stalls. Horses would fly to the back wall of their stalls, snorting and blowing. But that is the way they wanted them - always on edge. When in their stalls, they always had tail sets/braces on…

It is not the way I choose to keep horses. But again, these are not my horses, nor am I telling owners what they can or cannot do with them.

Yet you have.

Yet, neither you @ASB_Stars or @Laurierace can see the irony. Things that make you go hmmmm.

Things that make you go hmmmmm, indeed. Laurierace is a responsible TB owner and breeder and yet you “know” better and come sailing in here to blast away all high and mighty-like. I think you are missing some of the irony here.

Has anyone in this thread actually been to a horse slaughterhouse/processor/plant? Have you, ASB - seeing as you seem to know all about everything that happens? I have - many times many years ago - a big one in central Alberta. Vast holding pens. Good feed. Horses separated appropriately according to genders etc.

Potential saddle horses were seperated out as well - and you could go shopping through those pens. A good friend pulled many horses out of there - a few even he could not fix - but the majority found another chapter in life and good homes.

ASB - have you witnessed the process? As was mentioned upthread - it was one bad day. Horses came up a ramp one at a time… they were not crowded nose to tail in an assembly line. They moved into the chute. The door shut behind them. In the time it took for them to turn their head slightly and wonder what was happening - BANG - they were gone. Side of the chute opens, horse is tipped out into the next room… quick hose down, next one in.

Contrary to what PETA and other groups insist, no horse was hung alive upside down writhing and struggling and still alive and conscious when bled out. Never.

Have you ever seen a euthanasia go bad? The kind of incident where the horse overreacts to the drug, leaps straight up and flips over backwards, struggling in convulsions? I have. The occasional issue at the plant may happen the same way the occasional horse being PTS has a very unexpected end.

At the west side of that particular plant, they had a drive up section where you could haul a horse in privately (as opposed to running them through some auction somewhere), take him into the matted room and they would lay him down on the spot for you. Quick. Quiet. Efficient. An amazing service - especially when you are in the midst of an Alberta winter and it is -20 with 2 feet of snow on the ground… that makes it difficult to dig holes.

Thank God I was able to see so many things in the horse industry in person. The reality is often very different from what PETA or others insist is “normal”.

[McGurk]

@skydy

What would a boutique slaughterhouse do with the remains of the horses?

@skydy,

Just guessing, but the old hunt club kennels had a offal pit where the remains were burned, then buried.

I imagine a custom slaughterhouse and the big commercial houses do something similar with the offal from pigs and cows.

I do know one of the limitations of the custom slaughterhouses is that they have one processing line, and they have to break down and clean the line between species. Because of this, they don’t accept appointments for pork or beef during hunting season, because they can run at full capacity processing deer for hunters.

So a problem for a small plant would be enough horses to make it worthwhile to switch over from another meat.

[McGurk]

@smoofox,

Thank you for that post.

[cutter99]

@smoofox

My comments in blue.

@cutter99

@ASB_Stars

Oh, please. You have acknowledged that you sell animals for slaughter.

So how am I supposed to take this quote?

I would never send a horse to the track. But, I am not here advocating the closure of all tracks.

Sure you are - you have suggested as much. Horses die every day that have never been near a race track or bred to race. The vast majority of horses choking the slaughterhouses are QHs.

I could argue that life on the track is a very unnatural way for horses to live. For the record, I was licensed on tracks in NY, PA, MD, NJ and DE as a vendor, and spent more than enough time backside. I have seen the way horses live there.

And I have worked on the backside and on breeding farms - so I guess you would say I was abusing horses? NO. Different trainers and different barns have different methods. Horses even get sent back to the farm for some R&R and turnout - unlike many show horses.

The life of some show horses is worse. No turnout - EVER. One cannot risk an unsightly scratch or nick or a pulled shoe. I had a close friend who worked for a cutting horse and reined cow horse trainer down the road from the TB farm I was working on at the time. People complain about 2 year olds racing on the track… but seem to overlook 2 year olds loping in endless, mind-numbing circles in deep footing, constantly nagged at to drop their heads… round and round and round. Far smaller than TBs and carrying some guys who weighed a helluva lot more than an exercise rider or jockey on them. Well - to be fair - no matter how old a horse was, the monotonous loping was constant and the mainstay of their training and conditioning program. The horses did it in a very robotic way… eyes staring at nothing.

Then we come to the Saddlebred show barn a few roads over. BNT who had horses shipped in to him from all over North America. The ONLY time they were ever out of their stalls was when they were being ridden or driven. No turnout. As opposed to the quieter cutting horses, the ASBs were a bundle of nerves - all the time. Barn help would walk down the aisle and run the broom or rake handles along the bars at the front of the stalls. Horses would fly to the back wall of their stalls, snorting and blowing. But that is the way they wanted them - always on edge. When in their stalls, they always had tail sets/braces on…

It is not the way I choose to keep horses. But again, these are not my horses, nor am I telling owners what they can or cannot do with them.

Yet you have.

Yet, neither you @ASB_Stars or @Laurierace can see the irony. Things that make you go hmmmm.

Things that make you go hmmmmm, indeed. Laurierace is a responsible TB owner and breeder and yet you “know” better and come sailing in here to blast away all high and mighty-like. I think you are missing some of the irony here.

Has anyone in this thread actually been to a horse slaughterhouse/processor/plant? Have you, ASB - seeing as you seem to know all about everything that happens? I have - many times many years ago - a big one in central Alberta. Vast holding pens. Good feed. Horses separated appropriately according to genders etc.

Potential saddle horses were seperated out as well - and you could go shopping through those pens. A good friend pulled many horses out of there - a few even he could not fix - but the majority found another chapter in life and good homes.

ASB - have you witnessed the process? As was mentioned upthread - it was one bad day. Horses came up a ramp one at a time… they were not crowded nose to tail in an assembly line. They moved into the chute. The door shut behind them. In the time it took for them to turn their head slightly and wonder what was happening - BANG - they were gone. Side of the chute opens, horse is tipped out into the next room… quick hose down, next one in.

Contrary to what PETA and other groups insist, no horse was hung alive upside down writhing and struggling and still alive and conscious when bled out. Never.

Have you ever seen a euthanasia go bad? The kind of incident where the horse overreacts to the drug, leaps straight up and flips over backwards, struggling in convulsions? I have. The occasional issue at the plant may happen the same way the occasional horse being PTS has a very unexpected end.

At the west side of that particular plant, they had a drive up section where you could haul a horse in privately (as opposed to running them through some auction somewhere), take him into the matted room and they would lay him down on the spot for you. Quick. Quiet. Efficient. An amazing service - especially when you are in the midst of an Alberta winter and it is -20 with 2 feet of snow on the ground… that makes it difficult to dig holes.

Thank God I was able to see so many things in the horse industry in person. The reality is often very different from what PETA or others insist is “normal”.

Yes @smoofox, there are abuses in ever segment of equine disciplines. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

I have not told anyone here how to keep their horses. Please show me where I have. I have simply stated how mine are kept. You know nothing about me or my horses. Again, thank you very much.

I am not advocating anything but safe transport, as well as quick and humane termination.