Another Jazz thread, lots of questions..

[Donella]

I am thinking of breeding my Han mare Dutch this year. I had thought I had settled on Johnson but somehow Jazz has really started to appeal to me as one cannot deny his ability as a sire of high performance horses. I am one who has said I would never breed to Jazz because of his rep for temperament but I think I would like to investigate this further. :uhoh:

Does anyone here have a Jazz that they ride? Can anyone tell me specifically what it is about the offspring that give them the reputation they have? What I really don’t like is a horse that is really looky/spooky. I like a hot horse but it has to have confidence and be brave by nature.

What do you think he most consistently gives to his offspring in terms of physical traits/gaits? What type of mare suits him best?

Thanks!

[bloomingtonfarm]

Here is a good article from IDS about Jazz and his offspring.

http://cms.kwpn.nl/mediafile/0003/1295/Jazz__one_in_a_million.pdf

[Forte]

I haven’t ridden any Jazz offspring myself, but I know a number of people who ride them and show them. The ones I have seen (maybe 5 or 6 in total) were very spooky, looky and one of them had a rearing problem. That said, they were all fabulously talented, very uphill and were very successful with their professional riders.

[candico]

Ditto what Forte said… How about Negro? Still would produce hot, but less spooky in general. Also have personally seen foot/hoof issues in the Jazz offspring cut careers short…

[DownYonder]

I know of several, all of which have some of the personality traits mentioned by Forte. Their sensitivity and reactivity to external stimuli generally make them not suitable for most amateurs - esp. timid or inexperienced riders. They sure have great movement mechanics, though. Will also add that those big gaits can contribute to their “spookiness” under saddle - a friend of mine in Germany said it is believed in some circles that they tend to scare themselves sometimes with their big gaits, esp. as young horses that have not yet learned to hold themselves in balance. They are very talented horses, though, for a very good rider who will take time to let them mature physically and mentally.

I would certainly consider using him for a very solid minded mare with excellent rideability, and with a pedigree laden with solid minded horses also with excellent rideability.

[Donella]

Thank you guys for your replys and PM’s. Sounds like he often produces the kind of hot I don’t like. I have heard excellent things about the temperament/rideability of the Johnsons though so may well stick to that plan.

[EASY_RIDER_STABLE]

I have an IDOCUS Stallion out of a COCKTAIL mare by Blanc Rivage and he is a SAINT !!! I think the whole “Hot Temper Jazz” thing isn’t accurate. I think when raising a young horse that they become more or less “sensitive” due to how they’re raised. When introducing Jazz or Cocktail blood to your breeding program I really think you’re trying to achieve their exceptional talent, work ethic & movement/gaits. I think because those gaits tend to be so large and expressive the amateur or inexperienced rider has difficulty.

[Crosiadore]

Not a breeder of Dutch horses but will still vote for Johnson. We have one out a strong Oldenburg dam line. She was a bit immature and sensitive when just started, but has a solid work ethic now and is the consummate show horse. She loves to have people watch her perform.

Am fortunate to have a talented young horse rider and she has made it clear that she prefers not to have Jazz offspring to train. I am not starting my young horses, so I respect her wishes. This young woman can ride just about anything out there.

[jdeboer01]

[QUOTE=Crosiadore;6208482]
I am not starting my young horses, so I respect her wishes. This young woman can ride just about anything out there.[/QUOTE]

And I have “heard through the grapevine” of a reputable breeder who has produced many Jazz babies, actually selling off her frozen doses of Jazz. Just too much horse for the American market.

[Kyzteke]

@jdeboer01;6208489

And I have “heard through the grapevine” of a reputable breeder who has produced many Jazz babies, actually selling off her frozen doses of Jazz. Just too much horse for the American market.

See, this would be my concern. After reading the article I wavered, 'cause you can’t get much better than his production record for top level horses, but chances are selling the foals would be difficult, because we simply don’t have the riders in America who can do right by them.

I think it’s rather odd that so many breeders on this forum spout how they are breeding for GP, but here’s a stallion that has outproduced every other stallion in the world (year after year) in this regard and we stay away from him in droves…

Maybe what we need to breed is better riders.…then maybe Jazz offspring will be more popular…

[siegi_b]

I bred two of my mares to Jazz for foals to arrive in 2011. Both foals were sold before they were weaned.

Yes, Jazz is known for passing on a certain amount of spookiness, but that’s when it’s up to the breeder to select the right kind of mares. I think it’s kind of silly to just summarily dismiss any horses that have Jazz as their sire when the stallion has produced the largest number of FEI horses ever!

Also, from what I understand Jazz just changed breeding stations and being able to get “good” frozen semen from him may become a thing of the past.

Just my opinion…

[eaglesnest2]

I ride a Jazz mare. 2004 Jazz x Lancet x Joost. The mare was started by a professional for 90 days as a 3 year old then I took over the ride. I have owned her since she was 2. NEVER EVER has she been a spook. She is very bold and sensitive but for as long as I have owned her has NEVER put a foot down wrong undersaddle. I always feel like she wants to take care of me when I am on her back. She has a 2009 Rousseau filly that will be started this summer with a similar temperment.

I also own a 2005 Olivi (Jazz son)x Lancet x Doruto mare that has a HUGE spook!

I also own a 1996 Ulft x Sulton gelding that you can throw a cannonball at and he wouldn’t flinch.

I also own a 2004 mut pony that is scared of her own shadow…kind of scary to lead her when there is a monster hiding in the bushes all 12 hands of her

Every horse is an individual please remember that.

[clbailey54]

I know of one Jazz offspring who is ridden Grand Prix in CA. He is VERY talented and VERY reactive. If he shows inside he can barely finish a test. I have seen him spook, rear and canter on 3 legs. He was a stallion but finally was gelded. He is riidden by a really great rider but it is not enough to control his mind. His mind is his worst enemy.

[Donella]

Maybe what we need to breed is better riders…then maybe Jazz offspring will be more popular.

Maybe, but it is what it is right? The reality is that most buyers are older adult amateurs and if that is who you are breeding for then you need to be aware of what traits you need to breed into your horses.

Anyways, I am breeding for high performance, for horses to retain and develop most likely so not for sale as youngsters. But I just don’t like spooky, confidence lacking horses. I don’t like a horse that is scared of the same spot on the wall for a month…it’s just not my cup of tea.

I also own a 2005 Olivi (Jazz son)x Lancet x Doruto mare that has a HUGE spook!

Did this mare used to belong to the Millers?

[eaglesnest2]

Donella, yes! She is absolutely the nicest horse I have ever owned. She had a fabulous Rousseau colt last year and will be bred to Deniro this year. Unbelievable movement on this mare with the sweetest character, just has a big spook.

[Donella]

So cool, she was at my place for a bit at one point. Such a nice mare, amazing mover!!. DeNiro is such a good choice for her!!

[MysticOakRanch]

My friend has started, trained, and sold three Jazz horses now. One was a saint, easy going, ended up with an adult ammie who (last time I heard) is trucking around at 2nd level learning the ropes and having a good time. The other two were more hot and sensitive then I’d want to ride, definately horses for a more advanced rider, but they weren’t insane and unrideable. She loves them. All three were really nice movers with great hind leg. I wouldn’t write him off, but I’d match very carefully to a mare who has a proven track record of easy going temperment.

I suspect they are harder to sell as young (unstarted) horses because of the reputation.